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wy do we pay so much???/

scottm21166scottm21166 Member Posts: 20,723
edited September 2006 in General Discussion
In other Nymex trading, natural gas futures fell 14.7 cents to $4.480 per 1,000 cubic feet - after its lowest close last week since Sept. 10, 2004. Gasoline futures slid marginally to $1.4700 per gallon, while October heating oil futures declined 0.78 cent to $1.6394 a gallon.

Comments

  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    Those prices do not reflect TAXES.

    Look real close at how much in taxes is on ALL oil and gas products. It is ridiculous.
  • bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,669 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Taxes from the Feds. Well head taxes from the states. Taxes on the interstate pipeline transportation. Taxes on the distribution cost. Taxes on the truck that delivers it. Taxes on the payroll of the employee of the company that delivers it to you. Taxes on the cost of the pipe that the stuff is in. Taxes on the sale of the product paid by you.

    Then WAAAAAAAAAAY down on the list is the ~8% Profit the oil companies make on it; That gets taxed too.
  • LaidbackDanLaidbackDan Member Posts: 13,142 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Heres a little information on why gas prices vary by state.
    (These are 2005 figures)

    States ranked by total gas-tax burden, including state and federal levies.
    Source: American Petroleum Institute
    Total gas-tax
    burden/gallon

    New York 62.9 cents
    Hawaii 60.1 cents
    California 60.0 cents
    Illinois 54.6 cents
    Connecticut 53.9 cents
    Michigan 52.4 cents
    Nevada 51.9 cents
    Wisconsin 51.3 cents
    Florida 49.8 cents
    Pennsylvania 49.5 cents
    Rhode Island 49.4 cents
    Washington 49.4 cents
    Indiana 48.0 cents
    Ohio 46.4 cents
    Montana 46.2 cents
    Maine 45.8 cents
    North Carolina 45.8 cents
    West Virginia 45.4 cents
    Nebraska 44.6 cents
    Idaho 43.4 cents
    Kansas 43.4 cents
    Utah 42.9 cents
    Oregon 42.4 cents
    South Dakota 42.4 cents
    Maryland 41.9 cents
    Massachusetts 41.9 cents
    State Total gas-tax
    burden/gallon
    Delaware 41.4 cents
    North Dakota 41.4 cents
    Georgia 41.2 cents
    Colorado 40.4 cents
    Minnesota 40.4 cents
    Arkansas 40.1 cents
    Iowa 40.1 cents
    Tennessee 39.8 cents
    New Hampshire 39.0 cents
    Alabama 38.7 cents
    Washington D.C. 38.4 cents
    Louisiana 38.4 cents
    Texas 38.4 cents
    Vermont 38.4 cents
    Virginia 37.7 cents
    Arizona 37.4 cents
    Mississippi 37.2 cents
    Kentucky 36.9 cents
    New Mexico 36.4 cents
    Missouri 36.0 cents
    Oklahoma 35.4 cents
    South Carolina 35.2 cents
    New Jersey 32.9 cents
    Wyoming 32.4 cents
    Alaska 26.4 cents
  • CaptplaidCaptplaid Member Posts: 20,298 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I think last winter the price of natural gas was somewhere around $12.00 at Nymex.

    Anchor Glass (makes Bud bottles) got caught with there shorts around their ankles. They failer to hedge there natural gas purchases, and signed contracts to supply bottles based upon natural gas prices staying at the level they are today. A typical bottle factory can use as much natural gas as the residential usage of a major city.


    How about consumer prices for propane? My guy was offering a prepay at $1.59/ a gallon. Last two years it was $1.39. I have not heard what the cash price is this year.
  • kristovkristov Member Posts: 6,633
    edited November -1
    Scott, when you look at that price you are seeing what is known in the industry as the rack price, which is the price of unleaded 87 octane gasoline when purchased directly from the refinery. Now before you drive you car over to the Exxon-Mobil refinery and demand that they fill your tank for a buck-fifty a gallon you should understand how the motor fuel market REALLY works. There are not nearly as many oil refineries as people tend to believe and most of them refine other oil companies crude oil along with their own. That $1.47 is for unbranded unleaded fuel which means that is from a run at the refinery for sale to other than branded retail outlets like BP, Shell or Chevron. Drive you car into a Shell station and you will be buying Shell branded fuels and NOTHING ELSE because the FTC slapped the major oil companies hard 20+ years ago for pumping unbranded or other branded fuels at branded stations. To purchase fuel at the rack price you need to be a jobber and this usually means that you run your own independent oil company: Scott's Oil. The minimum purchase at the rack is usually 10,000 gallons and will be much more than amount that at the largest refinery's racks, which are always crowded. When you drive your rig into a refinery rack you'll often see of digital scoreboard which has the price of various fuels clearly posted along with the brands available. If you were driving a Shell tank-truck you are going to be sitting in the Shell line for Shell fuel but since Scott's Oil is an indepenedent you are price shopping. Having a good eye you notice the $1.47 unbranded price is much lower than the $1.55 price for Shell branded fuel. Since your tanker hold 8,000 gallons of unleaded fuel (less than that amount for diesel fuel) that 8 cents adds up to a $640 cost savings for you and even if you have to sit in line for an hour to fill up it will be worth your while to wait.

    Your first stop for the day is the Quicky-Mart 35 miles away. You have been delivering fuel to these folks for the past 8 years, that was when Shell oil decided the location was a poor retail outlet and sold it to the current owners. Naturally you are in the business to make money so you are selling the gasoline you just bought for $1.47 to the Quicky-Mart for $1.70, a profit for you of $1,840 for the load of fuel in your tanks. Of course you have to make the payments on your truck(s), pay for insurance, pay your drivers and also pay for the diesel your rig burned driving that 70 mile round trip from the refinery to the retail outlet. That $1,840 gets eaten up pretty fast! Once you drop the gasoline at the Quicky-Mart it's price now has to include all of the various taxes that Dan out lined so lets add 50 cents per gallon as an example. That gasoline is now $2.20 and the Quicky-Mart has not even made a profit yet. Of course Mr. Quicky needs to make a few bucks so he tags on 15 cents per gallon for himself bringing the total cost of a gallon of fuel at the pump to $2.35 per gallon. That my friend is EXACTLY how the retail gasoline market works. In our next lesson we can cover the marketing of branded fuels.
  • scottm21166scottm21166 Member Posts: 20,723
    edited November -1
    I have 5 refineries within 35 miles of where I live...the staion across the street from the refinery is still at 2.85 a gallon...

    the cheapest fuel we have is AM/PM atlantic richfield...they sell unleaded regular at 2.55 a gal


    that was informative kristov, thank you..
  • dlrjjdlrjj Member Posts: 5,529 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    k, you need to stop with the dispersal of reality based information. If you keep this up long enough, there will be some who come to doubt the truth we all know that it is really just a secret conspiracy of dozens of countries, hundreds of oil companies, and hundreds of thousands of individuals, none of whom will give up or reveal the secret. Not everyone will come to that realization of course, but some will, so you must stop in order to allow them to retain their comfort zone. If ignorance is bliss, some folks are experiencing pure rapture.[:)]
    Tax evasion is illegal, tax avoidance is an art form.
  • kristovkristov Member Posts: 6,633
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by dlrjj
    k, you need to stop with the dispersal of reality based information. If you keep this up long enough, there will be some who come to doubt the truth we all know that it is really just a secret conspiracy of dozens of countries, hundreds of oil companies, and hundreds of thousands of individuals, none of whom will give up or reveal the secret. Not everyone will come to that realization of course, but some will, so you must stop in order to allow them to retain their comfort zone. If ignorance is bliss, some folks are experiencing pure rapture.[:)]


    At the last monthly meeting of America's wealthy elites held at you plush Indiana estate, I was warned again not to reveal these secrets. By the way, Lynn's apple pie was fantastic and I noticed that George and Barbara Bush each had a second slice [;)].

    Scott, if the station next to the refinery is a branded station owned by the one of the majors who use that refinery then the transportation cost of the fuel is going to be the same whether it is trucked 100 miles are sent in a pipe 100 feet under the street. This is the same thinking that Ford uses for their destination charge on new cars and truscks: If you live in Detroit you'll be paying the same destination charge as a person living in Dallas. I spent my first five years as an engineer working for Union Oil and I learned that the "Big Tent" idea does not exist at a major oil comapany. The only thing that the folks pumping the crude, the folks refining it and the folks marketing the finished product have in common is that they all got a check every two weeks from Union Oil. Other than that the drilling, refining and marketing operations are totally removed from each other and the people selling the fuel are actually buying the product from the divison which refined it and they are paying rack price for it! Each division (and there are many more than the three that I mentioned) is run as an independent operation and each has to stand on it's own two feet or heads roll upstairs and someone gets shown the door. Owning a franchised gas station is not a license to print money like many people think. You'll pay a premium for your motor fuels if you want to have that big orange ball spinning aorund outside your Union Oil station (Which is now owned by Con-Phillips). What you do get with that franchise is an assurance of timely deliveries of motor fuels and access to world wide advertising and marketing. Even if that ARCO station was an independent franchise it MUST purhcase ARCO branded fuels and these will always be more costly than generic unbranded gasoline. On the other hand the Quicky-Mart's only advertising is the sign out front of the station and the board which shows a price 5 to 8 cents less than the branded station. If you live on the west coast then you can count on paying the highest motor fuel prices in the lower 48 and that is not going to change any time soon.
  • victorlvlbvictorlvlb Member Posts: 5,004
    edited November -1
    Two months ago the price of gas was three bucks or better. What has changed?The price is now less then two fifty?So what has changed?
  • KSUmarksmanKSUmarksman Member Posts: 10,705 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    the traders realized that they couldn't keep prices inflated based on empty hopes that a war breaks out or a major hurricane devastates the oil fields/refineries.

    So the price drop is not due to what heppened, but rather due to what DIDN'T happen.
  • dlrjjdlrjj Member Posts: 5,529 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by kristov
    Scott, if the station next to the refinery is a branded station owned by the one of the majors who use that refinery then the transportation cost of the fuel is going to be the same whether it is trucked 100 miles are sent in a pipe 100 feet under the street.
    Years ago when I was a young boy, we lived in Ft. Worth. My parents had a family friend who took a trip to Detroit each year and bought two new cars. One was a station wagon and the other was always a sedan. They drove them for a year, sold them for cash in Texas, and then returned to Detroit for two new ones. The price differential in that day and age, and the much lower price of cars was enough that they could drive the car for the year virtually for free as far as the depreciation was concerned.

    That was considered to be unfair by many of the folks in congress, and the laws were changed so that, as k said, the shipping cost would be the average of the cost throughout the country for everyone, regardless of where you lived. As Mond says, that ended that.
    Tax evasion is illegal, tax avoidance is an art form.
  • kristovkristov Member Posts: 6,633
    edited November -1
    The end of the summer driving season always sees a drop in gasoline demand and as a result a reduction in pressure on the price of crude to provide motor fuels. Inventories of gasoline are about 5% above this same time period last year and that is a good thing. The troubles up in Alaska's North Slope were not as disasterous as many thought and oil from that region is now flowing, although at reduced capacity. The Problems in Nigeria have either been solved of hushed up to the point that the markets are no longer concerned about an interuption of supply. The situation in Iran appears quiet for the time being and the sabre rattling by those loonie folks (not that we have any of them around here) who want to go to war, not only with Iran but the entire middle east, have been shut up- hopefully for a good long time. Hurricanes in the Gulf of Mexico are still in the back of the minds of many in the market but so far the big winds have blown away from the off shore rigs and the refineries along the Gulf Coast. Projections right now are for a cold winter so watch as demand increases for fuel oil, which will reduce the stocks of crude available for refining into motor fuels. This is not unusual and should present no major problems as long as supplies of crude are not interupted. We are not out of the woods yet and it only takes a few little things happening to shake up the market and drive up crude oil prices again. The market has already learned that $70+ for a barrel of crude is easy and even higher prices are possible if push comes to shove. People paid $3+ for a gallon of gasoline without altering their driving habits much, if at all, although they did cry like little babies while posting in on-line forums (forums which have ZERO impact on the market) and consumers willing to pay $3+ per gallon has escaped no one in the petroleum industry.
  • dlrjjdlrjj Member Posts: 5,529 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    It's not so much that the traders couldn't keep it inflated as they came to the realization of the changes you referred to, as well as several others, and just backed off a bit. Think of the market as a giant auction. As soon as some folks start to back off on the bidding, the auction price begins to drop, and that feeds others who decide to wait and see if the price will drop some more, pulling even more pressure out of the bidding. The market CAN tumble in a race to the bottom just as easily as it can inflate in a race to the top.
    Tax evasion is illegal, tax avoidance is an art form.
  • kristovkristov Member Posts: 6,633
    edited November -1
    Imagine if the government was by now controling the price of gasoline like many of our members demanded; the price at the pump would still be $3 per gallon but everyone would be happy because the price was now stable. I heard that gasoline prices might even drop 5 cents a gallon next year if the House and the Senate can just hammer out an agreement to lower the ceiling on motor fuel prices...after those ten committees charged with this give their reports!
  • victorlvlbvictorlvlb Member Posts: 5,004
    edited November -1
    So what has changed?
  • dlrjjdlrjj Member Posts: 5,529 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by victorlvlb
    So what has changed?

    Read k's post, he has covered virtually every base worth mentioning. The market is driven by future expectation, not current reality. If people think things will be bad, the price goes up, if they regain their optimistic attitude about the future, the price goes down.

    The metals markets are doing virtually the same thing, and for many of the same reasons. Investing is a future good, but speculation is based on fear to a great degree. Investing and speculation are not the same thing.
    Tax evasion is illegal, tax avoidance is an art form.
  • dlrjjdlrjj Member Posts: 5,529 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm with you on that government control k, I still think it is completely unfair that women live 5-7 years longer than men. It is a clear cut case of gender based discrimination and I want Congress to do something about it.[:D]

    I don't care whether they simply provide more health care resources to men in order to increase our lifespan, or just make it so that when women reach a certain age, they have to die. I'm just really upset at the inequality of the current situation.
    Tax evasion is illegal, tax avoidance is an art form.
  • kristovkristov Member Posts: 6,633
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by victorlvlb
    So what has changed?


    Exxon-Mobil geologists just discovered a huge pool of light sweet crude directly under your home Vic and the market took notice! Expect your first royalty check next month.
  • victorlvlbvictorlvlb Member Posts: 5,004
    edited November -1
    kristov
    Thats rich [:D][:D][:D].You made my day.Do you think the price of gas or heating oil will go back up in febuary?
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    So all the learned pontificating boils down to the simple facts.

    Greed drove the price of gas up beyond 3 bucks a gallon.

    Today, facing an election, the price drops to under 2 bucks. Look for a price spike just before election...to 'prove' to the masss that the election has nothing to do with low prices....
  • GuvamintCheeseGuvamintCheese Member Posts: 38,932
    edited November -1
    I get free gas.[8D] Natural, that is.
  • KSUmarksmanKSUmarksman Member Posts: 10,705 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    actually the large reserve they found is in the Gulf Of Mexico
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