In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.
Federal Suit Aimed At Local Gun Dealer (video add
JamesRK
Member Posts: 25,670 ✭✭✭
JamesRK comment: New York City is coming after our local gun dealer. I know Mark Cole and don't believe he would do anything dishonest, much less illegal. I believe this law suit is aimed at making being a gun dealer more of a pain in the * than it's worth. Even if he wins the suit, which I think he should, it will cost him big bucks and unnecessary aggravation. I hope it doesn't put him out of business.
http://www.gazettevirginian.com/news1.htm
The Gazette Virginian 17 May 2006
Federal Suit Aimed At Local Gun Dealer
Store Clerk Accused Of Illegally Selling Firearm To Private Investigators
Mark Cole, owner of Cole's Gun Shop in South Boston, claims his store has never knowingly engaged in illegal firearm sales.
Cole's statement yesterday followed a federal lawsuit brought by New York City officials claiming the store violated federal and state statutes by engaging in "straw sales" of firearms.
"I have never practiced any illegal practices at this shop," Cole said Tuesday morning, referring all other questions to his attorney and brother, Michael Cole.
"We are in the process of looking over the lawsuit, which I only received today, and looking at the video," the attorney said. "When all that is done we will issue a statement."
The attorney for the business also said, "We categorically deny that we have ever knowingly made a straw sale to anyone, ever."
Between 1994 and 2001, 32 guns used in crimes in New York City have been traced back to Cole's Gun Shop, according to a statement released by New York City Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg's office Monday.
In October 2001, a 15-year-old boy was arrested on a street in Brooklyn for possession of a loaded .32 caliber handgun traced to Coles, according to the statement.
And in June 2002, two 16-year-olds were charged with gun possession for bringing a .380-caliber handgun allegedly from Coles to Tottenville High School on Staten Island, the release said.
New York also hired investigators with hidden cameras from the James Mintz Group, a private investigative firm, to travel to gun dealers in five states to attempt to make "straw purchases" from the gun shops.
The investigators, in teams of two, entered gun stores and followed a scenario commonly known as "straw purchasing" - where one individual makes all of the inquiries into purchasing the gun, and then the other individual, completely uninvolved in the sale process, fills out the required federal forms to pass the background check, according to the mayor's release.
All 15 dealers named in the suit allegedly sold a gun to a team of undercover investigators, who wore hidden cameras during the sting operations, according to the mayor's office.
Federal law prohibits licensed dealers from selling firearms to individuals when they have a reasonable belief that the firearm being sold is not for the person who purports to be the purchaser, according to the release.
Coles Gun Shop is one of 15 gun dealers in five states named in NYC's lawsuit. Three other Virginia gun dealers, Webb's Sporting Goods in Madison Heights, Old Dominion Gun & Tackle in Danville and Patriot Services in Richmond were also named in the lawsuit.
New York City officials said they would turn over the information from their investigation to local authorities who will decide if any laws have been broken.
Halifax County Commonwealth's Attorney Kim White said yesterday that her office has had no contact of any kind with New York officials.
At a press conference Monday, Mayor Bloomberg, joined by Corporation Counsel Michael A. Cardozo, Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly and Criminal Justice Coordinator John Feinblatt, announced the suit in the Federal District Court for the Eastern District of New York against the15 gun dealers alleged to have sold firearms in violation of federal law.
The lawsuit seeks injunctive relief intended to halt the dealers' alleged illegal practices, and to recover monetary damages. The 15 gun dealers named in the lawsuit were targeted because of the large number of guns that have been traced back to them following crimes committed in New York City, according to Bloomberg's statement.
Based only on the incomplete data available to the city, more than 500 crime guns recovered by the New York City Police Department have been traced to 15 gun dealers between 1994 and 2001, according the mayor's statement.
"Today, we are sending a clear message to rogue gun dealers across the nation: straighten up and follow the law - or face the consequences," said Bloomberg at the press conference. "We can't afford to allow out-of-state dealers to sell illegally - too many people die every year because they do. This lawsuit is major step forward in our efforts to keep illegal guns out of our city.
"By and large, most gun dealers respect and follow the law, but the small group of dealers that do not should be held accountable - not protected by the disastrous legislation being considered in Congress," Bloomberg added. "It's time to hold these dealers responsible for their illegal actions - and that's exactly what this lawsuit intends to do."
The 15 dealers named in the suit are:
A-1 Jewelry and Pawn, Inc, Augusta,GA; Big Tom's Pawn Shop, Savannah,GA; Adventure Outdoors, Smyrna,GA; AAA Pawnbrokers, Hephizbah,GA; The Gun Store, Inc., Doraville,GA; Peddler's Post, Washington,OH; Jim's Guns and Whatever, Dayton,OH; Gallery Distributing, Mount Penn,PA; Dunkelberger's Sports Outfitters, Stroudsburg,PA; Woody's Pawnshop, Orangeburg,SC; Mickalis Pawnshop, Summerville, SC; Webb's Sporting Goods, Madison Heights,VA; Old Dominion Gun & Tackle, Danville,VA; Cole's Gun Shop, South Boston,VA; Patriot Services, Richmond,VA
Edited to add video 19 May 2006 (Friday)
To see an edited version of the sale at Cole's Gun shop, you can use the link below, and under MORE RESOURCES on the right side of the page, click on "Watch the video". It's a pretty long video and you have to wade through a lot of Mayor Bloomberg's BS before you get to it. The man making the sale is Mark's employee. Mark is a tall skinny guy.
Mark said the "detectives" admitted that when they came into the store the woman said she was looking for a gun to buy. They elected to edit that part out.
www.nyc.gov/html/om/html/2006a/pr156-06.html
http://www.gazettevirginian.com/news1.htm
The Gazette Virginian 17 May 2006
Federal Suit Aimed At Local Gun Dealer
Store Clerk Accused Of Illegally Selling Firearm To Private Investigators
Mark Cole, owner of Cole's Gun Shop in South Boston, claims his store has never knowingly engaged in illegal firearm sales.
Cole's statement yesterday followed a federal lawsuit brought by New York City officials claiming the store violated federal and state statutes by engaging in "straw sales" of firearms.
"I have never practiced any illegal practices at this shop," Cole said Tuesday morning, referring all other questions to his attorney and brother, Michael Cole.
"We are in the process of looking over the lawsuit, which I only received today, and looking at the video," the attorney said. "When all that is done we will issue a statement."
The attorney for the business also said, "We categorically deny that we have ever knowingly made a straw sale to anyone, ever."
Between 1994 and 2001, 32 guns used in crimes in New York City have been traced back to Cole's Gun Shop, according to a statement released by New York City Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg's office Monday.
In October 2001, a 15-year-old boy was arrested on a street in Brooklyn for possession of a loaded .32 caliber handgun traced to Coles, according to the statement.
And in June 2002, two 16-year-olds were charged with gun possession for bringing a .380-caliber handgun allegedly from Coles to Tottenville High School on Staten Island, the release said.
New York also hired investigators with hidden cameras from the James Mintz Group, a private investigative firm, to travel to gun dealers in five states to attempt to make "straw purchases" from the gun shops.
The investigators, in teams of two, entered gun stores and followed a scenario commonly known as "straw purchasing" - where one individual makes all of the inquiries into purchasing the gun, and then the other individual, completely uninvolved in the sale process, fills out the required federal forms to pass the background check, according to the mayor's release.
All 15 dealers named in the suit allegedly sold a gun to a team of undercover investigators, who wore hidden cameras during the sting operations, according to the mayor's office.
Federal law prohibits licensed dealers from selling firearms to individuals when they have a reasonable belief that the firearm being sold is not for the person who purports to be the purchaser, according to the release.
Coles Gun Shop is one of 15 gun dealers in five states named in NYC's lawsuit. Three other Virginia gun dealers, Webb's Sporting Goods in Madison Heights, Old Dominion Gun & Tackle in Danville and Patriot Services in Richmond were also named in the lawsuit.
New York City officials said they would turn over the information from their investigation to local authorities who will decide if any laws have been broken.
Halifax County Commonwealth's Attorney Kim White said yesterday that her office has had no contact of any kind with New York officials.
At a press conference Monday, Mayor Bloomberg, joined by Corporation Counsel Michael A. Cardozo, Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly and Criminal Justice Coordinator John Feinblatt, announced the suit in the Federal District Court for the Eastern District of New York against the15 gun dealers alleged to have sold firearms in violation of federal law.
The lawsuit seeks injunctive relief intended to halt the dealers' alleged illegal practices, and to recover monetary damages. The 15 gun dealers named in the lawsuit were targeted because of the large number of guns that have been traced back to them following crimes committed in New York City, according to Bloomberg's statement.
Based only on the incomplete data available to the city, more than 500 crime guns recovered by the New York City Police Department have been traced to 15 gun dealers between 1994 and 2001, according the mayor's statement.
"Today, we are sending a clear message to rogue gun dealers across the nation: straighten up and follow the law - or face the consequences," said Bloomberg at the press conference. "We can't afford to allow out-of-state dealers to sell illegally - too many people die every year because they do. This lawsuit is major step forward in our efforts to keep illegal guns out of our city.
"By and large, most gun dealers respect and follow the law, but the small group of dealers that do not should be held accountable - not protected by the disastrous legislation being considered in Congress," Bloomberg added. "It's time to hold these dealers responsible for their illegal actions - and that's exactly what this lawsuit intends to do."
The 15 dealers named in the suit are:
A-1 Jewelry and Pawn, Inc, Augusta,GA; Big Tom's Pawn Shop, Savannah,GA; Adventure Outdoors, Smyrna,GA; AAA Pawnbrokers, Hephizbah,GA; The Gun Store, Inc., Doraville,GA; Peddler's Post, Washington,OH; Jim's Guns and Whatever, Dayton,OH; Gallery Distributing, Mount Penn,PA; Dunkelberger's Sports Outfitters, Stroudsburg,PA; Woody's Pawnshop, Orangeburg,SC; Mickalis Pawnshop, Summerville, SC; Webb's Sporting Goods, Madison Heights,VA; Old Dominion Gun & Tackle, Danville,VA; Cole's Gun Shop, South Boston,VA; Patriot Services, Richmond,VA
Edited to add video 19 May 2006 (Friday)
To see an edited version of the sale at Cole's Gun shop, you can use the link below, and under MORE RESOURCES on the right side of the page, click on "Watch the video". It's a pretty long video and you have to wade through a lot of Mayor Bloomberg's BS before you get to it. The man making the sale is Mark's employee. Mark is a tall skinny guy.
Mark said the "detectives" admitted that when they came into the store the woman said she was looking for a gun to buy. They elected to edit that part out.
www.nyc.gov/html/om/html/2006a/pr156-06.html
The road to hell is paved with COMPROMISE.
Comments
Impossible to believe a third generation shop would bother with straw sales.
The owner has a collection of Winchester rifles on the wall, about 80-120.
Most of the guns [for sale] are near list price.
Plain and simple.
How long can they afford it, that is the question.
Just because my Dad goes to the store and buys a gun for me does not make it a straw purchase, even if I ask all the questions and he fills out the yellow sheet and pays the bill."
EhlerDave for the most part you are correct. A straw purchase has nothing to do with person who cannot legally own a firearm or not. A straw purchase is when one person buys a firearm intentially for another person. This is illegal according to BATFE. Now it would be considered a Straw Purchase and illegal for your Father to fillout the 4473 and pay for the firearm while you are picking out the weapon. Any dealer in their right mind would and should avoid a situation like that. However, it is not illegal for your father to come back and buy the firearm that you picked out as a "GIFT" and give it to you latter that day. This is ok according to BATFE "Gift" situation, Yes it is a really big grey area and in my opionion should not even be considerd if the dealer knows about it, but it is a loop hole that they really cannot do anything about.
The practice that we had at the store was this - If you remotely thought that something was not right- do not do the deal! The money that you would make off of the sale is not worth the fine, possible jail time and loosing your license.
Also there is something that the media and NY is not reporting on and this is it. Sometimes BATFE would call us and inform us about an individual with such and such description going to all of the local shops and buying multiple handguns. We were told by BATFE to go ahead and sell the firearms to them. It is not illegal for someone to walk into a store and say "I want 20 of these and 20 of those" as long as all the proper paperwork was filled out- including multiple forms. However, it is what they "intend" to do with them that gets them into trouble. It is kinda like drugs, if you are caught with an amount that is over a certain limit then you are automatically charged with intent to distribute. Now I understand that buying so many of the same gun is a major red flag for someone to do that; but wehad it happen all the time and we would gladly sell it to them with BATFE approval.
What was bought most of the time was Hipoints in 9mm and 380. Brycos in 380 (very popular). They would spend 89 dollars per gun and transport them to Boston, NY and Detroit. At the time these were considered the "Big Three" by BATFE, now I cannot imagine that things have changed that much. One agent told me that when they busted this guy they found his notes about his profit. They bought these cheap guns for 89 and would sell them on the street for 500 in the big three cities.
We had one situation where a crack fatlady (we knew who she was) came in and bought 35 hipoints (BAFTE approved). When they were busted these thee guys told her that if she did this for them; then they would give her some crack. Well all of them went to prison.
Another situation, a fellow came in and wanted to buy eight Mac-10's. We ordered them for him and sold it to them (another BATFE approval). Well guess what, BATFE lost them when the deal went down at 2:30 Am at the local train station. So I ask how many other illegal transaction that were fumbled by BATFE loosing the suspects. About two months later we got a supena out of NY. To testify against the fellow that bought the MAC's. Come to find out he sold them to some Jamacians (at the train station) that were used to killed a man in NY. The buyer went to prison for a very long time on "Gun running" charges and I believe on Accessory to murder
So my point in all of this is that I beleive most of the gun dealers are doing their job properly and according to the law. It is the different departments that drop the ball and blame the dealers for their failures.
I am done ranting
Weak circumstantial evidence, should not hold up in court, if reasonable doubt is actually applied by an unbiased jury
this is an attempt to bankrupt the owner.
Since they were out of state(NY), I would hope that boston, mass. goes after them for entrapment and also files a federal suit or whatever against the agent(s) that signed those forms.
no way would these people break law.
Former Member U.S. Navy Shooting Team
Former NSSA All American
Navy Distinguished Pistol Shot
MO, CT, VA.
Over the past several years I have purchased several handguns at this store and watched as they completed other handgun transactions with other customers. In many cases, the other purchasers may have a friend or friends with them since The Gun Gallery also has an indoor range and the purchasers often accompanied by their friend(s) will go into the range to try out the gun. I sincerely doubt that there is anything illegal in that. In everycase, I have seen that the store had the purchasers fill out the required forms and the store did not turnover the handgun to anyone but the purchaser nor have I seen a purchaser then hand the handgun to anyone else after completing the transaction.
Granted, I'm not present in the store eight hours a day - five days a week, but from what I've seen on the occasions I've been there all the transactions followed the letter of the law.
I think this lawsuit is nothing more than a publicity stunt for Bloomberg - it's gotten his name in the news media throughout the country.
There's no way that the Gun Gallery can be responsible for what occurs after the gun leaves the store. No more so than a car dealer who sells a car to an alcoholic who then is arrested for being in an accident while under the influence.
I sincerely hope that this suit is dismissed as it should be.
John
Just like car dealers do not know if someone will hand the keys to a 4,000 pound weapon that can do 120mph to a 15 year old crack head.
But in New Yawk this kind of lawsuit is the norm.
How many times have I seen him be dishonest with a customer?
More than ten
Why do I keep going back?
I do not
Why do I not report him being a LEO?
Im a state constable, my powers of arrest come directely from the district court. If I do not have a warrant in my hand Im just a private citizen.
I'm a Garand collector. I have seen H&R and IH Garands in his shop tagged WWII bringback. He once told me bluesky was a bbl maker for the garand! When I went back the bluesky on ALL the bbls was gone (same guns).
Check out his ads on Ebay and other gun auctions.
I do some gunsmithing for other shops in the area and get guns from the gallery constantly.
Belive me, I DO NOT want to see ANY honest gun shop fail, but some give us all a bad name.
This is what was in today's paper. The News & Record has a web site, but they haven't updated it since 8 May, so I had to scan the paper. Sorry about the quality of copy.
These two were PI's, not licensed LEO's, and were hired to conduct this purchase and transfer by the City of New York, not NYPD. They were just agents of potential plaintiffs who were trying to gather information for a planned civil action, not part of any sort of bona fide law enforcement investigation.
Whether or not the shop was aware the buyer intended to transfer this gun to another is arguable, but the PI's admit that they transferred the gun between them illegally. Since they were contracted to do this, I'd say these two and the NYC officials engaged in a conspiracy to violate federal laws. Exemptions to commit violations in order to file civil actions don't exist.
Any possible entrapment on the PI's part would simply cause their "evidence" to be disallowed in civil court. Their big problem is that they and their employer knowingly and intentionally violated federal firearms laws.
Mark said the "detectives" admitted that when they came into the store the woman said she was looking for a gun to buy. They elected to edit that part out.
www.nyc.gov/html/om/html/2006a/pr156-06.html
To see an edited version of the sale at Cole's Gun shop, you can use the link below, and under MORE RESOURCES on the right side of the page, click on "Watch the video". It's a pretty long video and you have to wade through a lot of Mayor Bloomberg's BS before you get to it. The man making the sale is Mark's employee. Mark is a tall skinny guy.
Mark said the "detectives" admitted that when they came into the store the woman said she was looking for a gun to buy. They elected to edit that part out.
www.nyc.gov/html/om/html/2006a/pr156-06.html
The second case was clearly a straw purchase...I'm not sure if that was your dealer, but the evidence against him is very significant...
If a large number of guns sold from a single shop are identified later to be straw purchases, clearly the shop needs some instruction, or maybe the gun shop is being victimized by criminals in the guiise of law abiding citizens, in which case the gun shop is the victim not the criminal.
It makes sense to track the guns used in crimes back to their source, but the gunshop shouldn't be left holding the bag. How did the guns get illegally transferred, were they stolen etc. If you have one person that says he had 37 guns stolen from him, that's more suspicious to me than one gun shop selling 37 guns that later turn out to be used in crimes.
From what I've read about these stings, they are very sneaky about the way they gather "evidence" They have one guy look at a gun, then another buy it, expecting the dealer to recognize what is going on. After the transaction, the guy who bought the gun might hand it to the other guy to carry out of the store. The dealer is expected to pick up on these "clues"
Dunno what they pull now But a friend of mine (passed now) who owned a gun store had 2 guys come in and look at handguns. After spending some time b/s'in with him one of them picked out a gun. Turned out he was from out of state. When he was told that he had to be a state resident or a licensed dealer to buy, his friend offered to buy it for him, after being told that that wouldnt work either, they left. The next day the state resident returned and wanted to buy the same gun. My friend had been warned by other dealers about this ploy. And had a local cop at the store. when questioned by him the guy pulled out a BATF ID. seems that it was a ruse to pull small dealers licenses as the dealer was supposed to "know" that the guy could possibly give the gun to the out of state resident. This was while Carter was in office (not to say anything political just to date it as this was before all the current rules were in effect and all you had to do then was answer the questions, five of em I think and the dealer kept the records on file)
Allen
).