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GUN SUPPORT RIGHT HERE TRFOX
kyplumber
Member Posts: 11,111
This one is for TR Everyone show your support!
"I am an American citizen, I have lived through A few political administrations. My history will never change! My future is full of change; Some for the better some for the worse. One thing that will never change is my pursuit of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Take this as a warning or a message from a loving and faithful American. We do not want you superceding our rules of our homes, We do not want you to tell us how to walk, talk or live. We Americans are truly independent regardless of what the T.V. shows you! We are for the most part a kind and caring nation; But like a mother bear when you mess with our own we will eat you alive! and anyone with you!"
We were founded by some of the most notable men in all of history! They set forth a document which was the framework for our government, (the Declaration of Independence, U.S. Constitution, and the bill of rights) In concept were wrote flawlessly! Some may mention the deal about about slaves blah blah but we import slaves now and call them "guest workers" Which is all beside the point, The issues covered then were the same as they are now! And some of us Americans KNOW OUR ROOTS AND KNOW OUR HISTORY AND WILL FIGHT! AND WILL DIE! for our country; Its history and it's future!
Send this to the UN or wherever! edit as necassary! Show some support or criticism but respond![8D]
"I am an American citizen, I have lived through A few political administrations. My history will never change! My future is full of change; Some for the better some for the worse. One thing that will never change is my pursuit of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Take this as a warning or a message from a loving and faithful American. We do not want you superceding our rules of our homes, We do not want you to tell us how to walk, talk or live. We Americans are truly independent regardless of what the T.V. shows you! We are for the most part a kind and caring nation; But like a mother bear when you mess with our own we will eat you alive! and anyone with you!"
We were founded by some of the most notable men in all of history! They set forth a document which was the framework for our government, (the Declaration of Independence, U.S. Constitution, and the bill of rights) In concept were wrote flawlessly! Some may mention the deal about about slaves blah blah but we import slaves now and call them "guest workers" Which is all beside the point, The issues covered then were the same as they are now! And some of us Americans KNOW OUR ROOTS AND KNOW OUR HISTORY AND WILL FIGHT! AND WILL DIE! for our country; Its history and it's future!
Send this to the UN or wherever! edit as necassary! Show some support or criticism but respond![8D]
Comments
This one is for TR Everyone show your support!
"I am an American citizen, I have lived through A few political administrations. My history will never change! My future is full of change; Some for the better some for the worse. One thing that will never change is my pursuit of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Take this as a warning or a message from a loving and faithful American. We do not want you superceding our rules of our homes, We do not want you to tell us how to walk, talk or live. We Americans are truly independent regardless of what the T.V. shows you! We are for the most part a kind and caring nation; But like a mother bear when you mess with our own we will eat you alive! and anyone with you!"
We were founded by some of the most notable men in all of history! They set forth a document which was the framework for our government, (the Declaration of Independence, U.S. Constitution, and the bill of rights) In concept were wrote flawlessly! Some may mention the deal about about slaves blah blah but we import slaves now and call them "guest workers" Which is all beside the point, The issues covered then were the same as they are now! And some of us Americans KNOW OUR ROOTS AND KNOW OUR HISTORY AND WILL FIGHT! AND WILL DIE! for our country; Its history and it's future!
Send this to the UN or wherever! edit as necassary! Show some support or criticism but respond![8D]
Do you REALLY think any of the anti-gun crowd is going to notice or care about this? And to help us with a concerted effort (in the hopes those efforts MIGHT get noticed) why don't you provide us with a single address for "sending this to the UN?". And should we e-mail it, snail mail it, UPS it or what? And what address do you have for that "wherever" location?
quote:Originally posted by kyplumber
This one is for TR Everyone show your support!
"I am an American citizen, I have lived through A few political administrations. My history will never change! My future is full of change; Some for the better some for the worse. One thing that will never change is my pursuit of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Take this as a warning or a message from a loving and faithful American. We do not want you superceding our rules of our homes, We do not want you to tell us how to walk, talk or live. We Americans are truly independent regardless of what the T.V. shows you! We are for the most part a kind and caring nation; But like a mother bear when you mess with our own we will eat you alive! and anyone with you!"
We were founded by some of the most notable men in all of history! They set forth a document which was the framework for our government, (the Declaration of Independence, U.S. Constitution, and the bill of rights) In concept were wrote flawlessly! Some may mention the deal about about slaves blah blah but we import slaves now and call them "guest workers" Which is all beside the point, The issues covered then were the same as they are now! And some of us Americans KNOW OUR ROOTS AND KNOW OUR HISTORY AND WILL FIGHT! AND WILL DIE! for our country; Its history and it's future!
Send this to the UN or wherever! edit as necassary! Show some support or criticism but respond![8D]
Do you REALLY think any of the anti-gun crowd is going to notice or care about this? And to help us with a concerted effort (in the hopes those efforts MIGHT get noticed) why don't you provide us with a single address for "sending this to the UN?". And should we e-mail it, snail mail it, UPS it or what? And what address do you have for that "wherever" location?
when the time come "WE" will walk the walk too... Bet your * on that!
If you can accept the above as more or less true, then please consider this question:
Which approach do you believe would be most successful in convincing these middle-grounders that guns are not evil and do not need to be banned:
1. To primarily conduct yourself as a respectable citizen with varied interests and an approachable demeanor...in short a good guy who happens to own guns, and is willing to discuss gun issues with beginners or middle-grounders in a calm, sensible, sane manner;
2. To take the foaming-at-the-mouth, in-your-face approach that rants incessantly about how the government is coming after us, the apocolypse is nigh, and how (in capital letters, wtih surplus exclamation points) OUR WRATH WILL BE FELT IF YOU ARE NOT ONE OF US!!!!!
Well?
1. To primarily conduct yourself as a respectable citizen with varied interests and an approachable demeanor...in short a good guy who happens to own guns, and is willing to discuss gun issues with beginners or middle-grounders in a calm, sensible, sane manner;
This was a splendid approach....in 1968. Maybe even thru the 70's.
Today...all it reveals is our lack of courage. To those of you that support gun control...20,000 laws on the book mean little. Crawling on your belly is a piffle..a mere trifle.
Sweet reason has bought and paid for every one of those 20,000 gun laws...and you are surely welcome to continue to support a failed program.
I truly wish that those willing to advocate gun control would never train another shooter. That includes the NRA, by the way...
You have heard the side of the argument that states that we still have gun 'rights' because of the NRA.
Partially right...we have gun 'privileges' because of the NRA.
The reason there hasen't been a ban is because there would be armed insurection..and they aren't quite ready yet for that.
Those that whorship the NRA cannot admit that, of course...
First, I hope you are not mistakenly thinking that I advocate gun control at all. I don't, except in the case of that twisted minority that shouldn't be allowed to own anything more powerful than a holepunch.
Secondly, I have never suggested anything that remotely resembles belly-crawling.
A careful read of what I posted would clearly show that what I propose is to build credibility before trying to implement change. It goes like this:
1. Middle-grounders see you as someone reasonable and reasonably intelligent.
2. Middle-grounders come to respect you and your opinions based on #1.
3. Middle-grounders realize you are a gun-owner.
4. Middle-grounders, not being obtuse, realize that if a reasonable, respectable man is a gun-owner, maybe it's not as bad as the antis want to make it out to be.
Or, you could make your first impression as some on here seem wont to do. In which case, the middle-grounders might picture walnuts, or maybe pecans, possibly macadamias. But rest assured, they will be thinking nuts. Now try to convince them your argument has merit.
(And by the way, I have never so much as mentioned the NRA in this forum as far as I know.)
You beg permission from your master to exercise what you ..laughingly..call a right.
My reply addressed EXACTLY your post....AS in..I dismissed it out of hand.
I really no longer give a damn what some enuch believes about me or the 3 % of men left in this country.
When will you finally grasp the idea...."Rational approaches" have brought you 20,000 gun laws...
The Founders, according to you...were "Nuts"...ehhh ?
Excuse me, while I step a bit futher away from your viewpoint....
I submit to you...either you support the Second Amendment...OR YOU DON'T....
A "little gun control" is absolutely like being a "Little Pregnant"...
Do you stop to think about what you are typing, or do your fingers roam the keyboard while you are asleep?
Please read into my posts exactly what I type into them, and nothing more. I can assure you that you don't have the insight to add to or detract from what I post, and you certainly don't have the insight to make inferences or assumptions about hidden meanings that simply arent' there.
Thank you and goodnight.
330 X Rings
Perfect score 3rd shot!
Those arguments were used 40 years ago..EXACTLY THE SAME ARGUMENTS..many times by me, when I was young and dumb. The years have taught me that appeasing a beast by hacking off one finger at a time only whetts his appetite...and the guy standing on the sidelines cheering the beast ain't no friend of yours...and never will be.
Stroking the stupid middle is admitting defeat.
I will tell you quite freely...I have come to realize that gun-owners supporting gun control laws are a FAR greater threat to the Second Amendment then every Socialist politician that ever lived. The enemy of the Second isn't at the gate...it lives next door.
These are the topics I addressed in my original post:
1. The existence of anti-gun advocates.
2. The existence of pro-gun advocates.
3. The existence of those who have not yet been convinced one way or another.
4. The best approach to convince those undecideds that pro-gun is the way to go.
These are the topics that you somehow chose to reply to:
1. My favoring more gun laws. (?)
2. My favoring abolishing the second amendment. (?)
3. My blind support of the NRA. (?)
4. My low opinion of our founding fathers. (?)
Do you see the disparity?
(Don't get discouraged here. Keep reading. It's okay if your lips move while you're sounding out the big words.)
I'll make this as simple as I possibly can. I do NOT support additional gun laws. I do NOT support any waterinGodown of the second amendment. I do NOT shill for the NRA.
My whole point, which I thought was fairly clear, is that you will convince more potential anti-gun advoactes to see things your way--no, OUR way-- if you present them with a rational, well-thought-out argument than if you appear to them as some nutjob.
Is that clear? If you now respond with some rant about how I kick puppies for entertainment, or write fan letters to PETA, I'm afraid I'll have to give it up as a lost cause...although I think you would be illustrating my point for me.
Edited for typo.
Slowly..so the slowest can understand without the need to think...
quote:1. The existence of anti-gun advocates.Don't give a rat's *..they been with us since we crawled out of the ocean. Mostly cowards.
quote:2. The existence of pro-gun advocates.Ya...about 3% of the population.
quote:3. The existence of those who have not yet been convinced one way or another.These people mostly were standing on the sidelines when the Founders won this country...and they will still be standing there after the NEXT round against tyranny.
4 quote:. The best approach to convince those undecideds that pro-gun is the way to go.Herein lies the secret.
Lying behind the sweet, gentle approach to 'teaching' the undecided is the implied "This gun law is GOOD for us"...as yet another unConstitutional law is forced down our necks.
I BELIEVE in teaching the "Undecided" about guns...gun handling..and proper respect for these tools. Along WITH this teaching...should come a hearty dose of EXACTLY what the Second Amendment MEANS...and it ain't about duck hunting.
And wouldn't you like to see that 3% grow? Then stop. Think (at least give it your best shot). How will you increase that number? Hm? Get ready. I'm going to give you the answer. Are you ready? Here's how: By convincing the fence-straddlers that more gun laws are bad.
And how are you going to convince them? By spouting rhetoric about how their blood will spill during the next revolution? G'head. Try that. Watch them back slowly away, filing you and every other gun owner under the heading "Wacko".
OR...you could try some rational response, like, "Yes, I own guns, and I enjoy them not only for their aesthetic value, but for hunting and target shooting. Also, I believe that children who are taught to respect firearms and to handle them safely are far less likely to use those guns for criminal activities in the future. But do you know what? There are those who would like to pass laws preventing me from owning guns, even though I am a law-abiding citizen." Something like that would be a good start.
(I'm sure that somewhere in this post you'll find evidence that I am a secret Rosie O'Donnell admirer, that I refuse to buy Girl Scout cookies and that I have plans to sneak into the National Archives and erase the Second Amendment from the constitution. Oh, well.)
This you already HAVE done..by supporting gun laws...as you stated over on "4idiots"
The Rosie deal....well..the jury is out on this...I merely have seen a rousing argument so far...nothing to indicate that you wear panties...[:D]
While you are talking to that "Undecided"..would you ever mention that the Founders intended us to be armed to resist enemies..foreign or nor..that they wanted us able to resist tyrannical govenments....that hunting/sporting use/esthetic values are meaningless terms to the Founders ? Wouldn't you call that misleading...no matter HOW the emasculated take it ?
quote:Edited to change 'gun rights' to 4idiots
@#! that tries to infringe on my rights"? As I said before...g'head. You just lost a potential convert. Keep in mind, this soccer mom is not the enemy. Yet. She's confused, she's asking questions, she's trying to make up her mind. You are her one link to the gun-owning community. She is going to form her opinion of all gun owners from her opinion of you. Reasonable? No. True? Yes.
As for my gun rights post...I'll stand behind what I wrote. There are people in this world who do not deserve the right to own guns. They would be dangerous to themselves or others. I will brook no argument on this point. The same thing applies to operating automobiles or heavy equipment, or anything else that has the potential to cause harm. I am not talking about your average law-abiding citizen here, and you know that as well as I do.
A bit of history..mine. You perhaps will not be interested.
I ALWAYS attempt to train any person willing to make the trip to the range. Normally, I furnish the arms, ammo, glasses..the whole ball of wax. Just my contribution to continued freedom in America....
Normally, self defense is the primary reason for folks going to learn to shoot. My training is entry level..but normally goes right up to .45 in the course of 2-3 hours....
Whats the point of my self aggrandizing ? Merely to mention that I can do this without ever ONCE attempting to recruit them to be a member of my private "army"....That in the course of the training a casual hint that an armed person is in command of most situations...those attempting to restrict gun ownership have a different objective then 'crime control'..any futher conversation is in response to questions.
I normally train somewhere between 7 to a dozen a year...only as an individual.
Flame-thrower ? You bet I am...when presented with Anti-gun idiots...
Your angst over inappropriate people with guns CANNOT be addressed with more gun laws.
BUT...I do not now, nor have I ever advocated more gun laws. There are laws on the books now that prohibit the sort of folks I am talking about from owning guns. There are also laws that seem to have no basis in logic that affect all of us. The answer seems to me to be to eradicate the nonsense laws and leave the ones that good sense dictates should remain in place. Nor am I naive enough to believe that criminals will actually have a hard time obtaining weapons just because the law says they can't. You want to keep guns out of the hands of criminals? Keep criminals out of society. I think we agree on that.
My whole rant here is not a result of thinking we need more control on who can own guns. Nor is it a personal attack on anyone's view of the Second Amendment. It is simply a suggestion that some of the posts I have seen in this forum (not necessarily in this thread) are precisely the kinds of rhetoric that will send the not-so-sure segment of our society scurrying toward the anti camp. For an example, refer to the first post in this thread. While I can understand kyplumber's frustration, it's hard for me to believe that anyone in the UN will be swayed by a threat to "eat you alive". See? Blood and guts and tyranny and the coming civil war...it may all be true, but that's not the way you want to introduce yourself to potential antis.
(Also, maybe it's just me, but if I were writing a letter to a UN ambassador-whether I agreed with his politics or not-I would at least try to use complete sentences.)
My position is to punish the GUILTY..rather then decent citizens. I believe the mentally unfit will rapidly be weeded out..those that tend to be violent...see, kinder, gentler isn't working well.
My posititon about writting to the UN is also diametrically opposed to yours. Were I to write the UN...the only message I could convey is utter,complete and irrevocable contempt, animosity, and devotion to utterly destroying every last trace of their profane presence in America.So..I am smart enough to not write them. Let those animals do as they will..perhaps enough people will educate themselves about the UN some day.
The day the Beast loses its grip upon America..is the day the UN is sent packing.
Let me sum up my gun control position. Punish...HARSHLY..those commiting crimes against their fellow humans. I support laws that address the MISUSE of weapons...not blanket laws that only affect decent people.
Okay..the dust has settled a bit.
A bit of history..mine. You perhaps will not be interested.
I ALWAYS attempt to train any person willing to make the trip to the range. Normally, I furnish the arms, ammo, glasses..the whole ball of wax. Just my contribution to continued freedom in America....
Normally, self defense is the primary reason for folks going to learn to shoot. My training is entry level..but normally goes right up to .45 in the course of 2-3 hours....
Whats the point of my self aggrandizing ? Merely to mention that I can do this without ever ONCE attempting to recruit them to be a member of my private "army"....That in the course of the training a casual hint that an armed person is in command of most situations...those attempting to restrict gun ownership have a different objective then 'crime control'..any futher conversation is in response to questions.
I normally train somewhere between 7 to a dozen a year...only as an individual.
Flame-thrower ? You bet I am...when presented with Anti-gun idiots...
Your angst over inappropriate people with guns CANNOT be addressed with more gun laws.
In red above. You do far more than me in spite of my good intentions. Just one more reason why you have earned the right to be a crotchety old GB.com member.
There are anti-gun folks out there who are dyed-in-the-wool, and nothing any of us can say or do will change their minds. Fortunately, there are also pro-gun folks who are just as adamant about their beliefs. The tide of public sentiment, it seems, hinges on those middle-grounders...the ones who, while not adamantly against guns, have some sort of fear of guns...the ones who don't mind you owning guns but would be nervous about letting you show their young son how to shoot safely. These are the people who are most likely to be swayed to one side or the other by a convincing pro-gun or anti-gun argument.
If you can accept the above as more or less true, then please consider this question:
Which approach do you believe would be most successful in convincing these middle-grounders that guns are not evil and do not need to be banned:
1. To primarily conduct yourself as a respectable citizen with varied interests and an approachable demeanor...in short a good guy who happens to own guns, and is willing to discuss gun issues with beginners or middle-grounders in a calm, sensible, sane manner;
2. To take the foaming-at-the-mouth, in-your-face approach that rants incessantly about how the government is coming after us, the apocolypse is nigh, and how (in capital letters, wtih surplus exclamation points) OUR WRATH WILL BE FELT IF YOU ARE NOT ONE OF US!!!!!
Well?
This person has a very clear understanding of our situation.
they would probably wither up and die if they had to do that.
Okay. I'm willing. How are we going to do it? High-volume arguments? Using more exclamation points than they do in letters to the editor? Actual nails?
Almost everything you said about the antis is true. What you're lacking is a workable plan to change anything. Spouting platitudes and falling back on hackneyed phrases will do absolutely nothing to change anyone's mind. Until you can present me with a workable plan to implement change (and "nail the f***ers to the wall" is NOT a workable plan), I'll keep doing what I do.
they think they are winning the argument if more people see their point of view (which is unreasonable, illogical, and a-factual). how do they do that? by telling lies to people who don't know anything about guns or are otherwise
I hate to tell you, but if more people see their point of view, they ARE winning the argument. Why? Because gun laws are made by legislators, and legislators live and die by the opinion poll. If more people respond to poll questions with anti-gun answers, guess what they laws are going to do?
All I am saying here- and all I have BEEN saying- is that it doesn't matter that you are right; it matters if you can present a lucid, logical argument in support of your case. This applies to gun issues and to every other issue that is ultimately decided by legislators.