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Killing of burglars spurs legal debate. TX
FrancF
Member Posts: 35,279 ✭✭✭
PASADENA, Texas - When he saw two men using a crowbar to enter his neighbor's house this month, Joe Horn did what many people would do: He called 911.
But when police had not shown up by the time the men were about to leave, the 61-year-old retiree did something most people probably would not: He put down the phone, stepped outside with his shotgun and killed them.
"I'm not going to let them get away with this," Horn told the 911 dispatcher, who responded: "Property's not worth killing someone over."
Seconds later, the sound of a gun being loaded was captured on the 911 tape, followed by the warning: "Move [and] you're dead" and then three bursts of gunfire. Miguel DeJesus, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, died from their wounds. Both had histories of committing small-time crimes.
The recording of Horn's anger, frustration and willingness to take the law into his own hands has made him the focus of a national dispute. Critics condemn him as a vigilante bent on meting out murderous justice. Admirers praise him as a courageous hero whom any law abider would love to have next door.
"Why is he still a free man?" Linda E. Edwards wrote in a letter to The Houston Chronicle.
"Joe Horn gets a Texas 'attaboy' from me," countered John E. Meagher in the next letter on the page, adding: "Justice was served, law or not."
As the debate rages on talk radio and cable news shows, Horn remains free. However, according to his attorney, he is so overwrought with grief and overwhelmed by the glare of publicity that he has left his home in this blue-collar Houston suburb.
"Joe has never been anything but a gentle person. He's not the type of monster that they are making him out to be," attorney Tom Lambright said in an interview with Houston radio host Michael Berry.
Lambright did not return requests for comment.
Authorities are investigating what happened Nov. 14, but they plan to let a Harris County grand jury decide whether Horn, a former computer consultant, should be indicted for any crimes.
"This is not an individual who stepped outside and gunned down two pedestrians on the sidewalk," said Pasadena police Capt. A.H. "Bud" Corbett. "In a situation where there is some uncertainty about which side of the law someone was on, the best thing to do is assemble all the information and present it to the grand jury."
Noting Texans' prevailing populist views on guns and self-defense - and the sharply mixed reaction to what Horn did - legal experts differ over whether a jury of his peers would ever indict him. They also differ on whether one should, given a Texas law known as the "castle doctrine" that permits citizens to use deadly force to defend their homes and cars.
Tommy LaFon, a Houston defense attorney and former prosecutor who has argued about 50 disputed shooting cases before grand juries, said Horn's lawyers may be able to claim that his actions were legal because he was acting as the de facto defender of his neighbor's property.
"If a jury believes he was standing in the shoes of the owner, that might affect their decision," LaFon said.
Critics of the way the case has been handled say the 911 tape is proof that Horn had determined to shoot the robbers before stepping outside with his gun.
Noting that Horn is white and the suspects were dark-skinned, Quanell X, a Houston activist, accused authorities of bias. Horn should be charged with murder, he said.
"Mr. Horn did not have to kill those people," Quanell X said during a protest. "Mr. Horn became judge, jury and executioner."
But when police had not shown up by the time the men were about to leave, the 61-year-old retiree did something most people probably would not: He put down the phone, stepped outside with his shotgun and killed them.
"I'm not going to let them get away with this," Horn told the 911 dispatcher, who responded: "Property's not worth killing someone over."
Seconds later, the sound of a gun being loaded was captured on the 911 tape, followed by the warning: "Move [and] you're dead" and then three bursts of gunfire. Miguel DeJesus, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, died from their wounds. Both had histories of committing small-time crimes.
The recording of Horn's anger, frustration and willingness to take the law into his own hands has made him the focus of a national dispute. Critics condemn him as a vigilante bent on meting out murderous justice. Admirers praise him as a courageous hero whom any law abider would love to have next door.
"Why is he still a free man?" Linda E. Edwards wrote in a letter to The Houston Chronicle.
"Joe Horn gets a Texas 'attaboy' from me," countered John E. Meagher in the next letter on the page, adding: "Justice was served, law or not."
As the debate rages on talk radio and cable news shows, Horn remains free. However, according to his attorney, he is so overwrought with grief and overwhelmed by the glare of publicity that he has left his home in this blue-collar Houston suburb.
"Joe has never been anything but a gentle person. He's not the type of monster that they are making him out to be," attorney Tom Lambright said in an interview with Houston radio host Michael Berry.
Lambright did not return requests for comment.
Authorities are investigating what happened Nov. 14, but they plan to let a Harris County grand jury decide whether Horn, a former computer consultant, should be indicted for any crimes.
"This is not an individual who stepped outside and gunned down two pedestrians on the sidewalk," said Pasadena police Capt. A.H. "Bud" Corbett. "In a situation where there is some uncertainty about which side of the law someone was on, the best thing to do is assemble all the information and present it to the grand jury."
Noting Texans' prevailing populist views on guns and self-defense - and the sharply mixed reaction to what Horn did - legal experts differ over whether a jury of his peers would ever indict him. They also differ on whether one should, given a Texas law known as the "castle doctrine" that permits citizens to use deadly force to defend their homes and cars.
Tommy LaFon, a Houston defense attorney and former prosecutor who has argued about 50 disputed shooting cases before grand juries, said Horn's lawyers may be able to claim that his actions were legal because he was acting as the de facto defender of his neighbor's property.
"If a jury believes he was standing in the shoes of the owner, that might affect their decision," LaFon said.
Critics of the way the case has been handled say the 911 tape is proof that Horn had determined to shoot the robbers before stepping outside with his gun.
Noting that Horn is white and the suspects were dark-skinned, Quanell X, a Houston activist, accused authorities of bias. Horn should be charged with murder, he said.
"Mr. Horn did not have to kill those people," Quanell X said during a protest. "Mr. Horn became judge, jury and executioner."
Comments
"Mr. Horn did not have to kill those people," Quanell X said during a protest. "Mr. Horn became judge, jury and executioner."
Quanell X is a racist.
"Mr. Horn did not have to kill those people," Quanell X said during a protest. "Mr. Horn became judge, jury and executioner."
The two guys commiting crimes against innocent people did not have to commit crimes. No one made those criminals choose threir path in life.
There's the problem... legal system slaps them on the wrist and let's them go. Now they won't get away with any more crimes.
Joe Horn, if you're reading this, my neighbor's house is for sale. I'll cut your lawn and rake your leaves if you buy it and move in. [:D]
+1
Too bad more neighbors aren't like him
"Both had histories of committing small-time crimes." Come on folks they probably had unfortunate childhoods.
Quandell X - get a life and a job loser.
Think if I was in that situation the first round goes at the feet for an attention getter, next would be center mass if they don't stop befor the cops show up.
i have been told if you pull the trigger as an attention getter it is just like you pulled it to stop the action, in the ground or in the chest it is all deadly force ,(we never shoot to wound or scare, we shoot to neutralize the situation)because we feared for our life or the safety of others. i.e.: i caught 5 blk kids 9-14 trying to get in my cars one morning 1:30AM i bust out the door with the XD and they scatter like roaches they ran down a dead end and had to come back to me, all i could do was make them think they could not pass but bottom line they didn't get into the car and did not threaten me (now if one got dumb it would have been another story to tell[xx(]) law came with a chopper over head, they gave them a tress pass warning and sent them on there way[:0][:0]. What message do you think that sent them.[V][V]
When they ask why the have a limp they will remember that day.
See I am a nice guy[:D] #4 shot to the feet, your not going to be running far or dead. You will live with orthopedic shoes as a reminder for your petty * crime.[;)]
Remember Bernie Goetz?
Anyone worth shooting is worth killing.....
quote:Originally posted by FrancF
Think if I was in that situation the first round goes at the feet for an attention getter, next would be center mass if they don't stop befor the cops show up.
i have been told if you pull the trigger as an attention getter it is just like you pulled it to stop the action, in the ground or in the chest it is all deadly force ,(we never shoot to wound or scare, we shoot to neutralize the situation)because we feared for our life or the safety of others. i.e.: i caught 5 blk kids 9-14 trying to get in my cars one morning 1:30AM i bust out the door with the XD and they scatter like roaches they ran down a dead end and had to come back to me, all i could do was make them think they could not pass but bottom line they didn't get into the car and did not threaten me (now if one got dumb it would have been another story to tell[xx(]) law came with a chopper over head, they gave them a tress pass warning and sent them on there way[:0][:0]. What message do you think that sent them.[V][V]
Not near the message, lookin down that XD conveyed. Hopefully at least one of those kids learned something..
there is only 1 story told[:D][:D]
quote:Originally posted by FrancF
See I am a nice guy[:D] #4 shot to the feet, your not going to be running far or dead. You will live with orthopedic shoes as a reminder for your petty * crime.[;)]
Remember Bernie Goetz?
Anyone worth shooting is worth killing.....
Yep! He did good![^]
Situations are not all the same.
[/quote]
one thing learned
there was a very big S O B that was still up and watching the cameras out frt. i liked to never got out of that lazyboy couldnt get the thing to let me out!!!! [:D][:D] i did learn something also next time lets not bust out that door if they were 18-25 things may have not worked out to the good ( for me) [:(][:(][xx(][:(]
we all know it is easier to sit and say I would or I could've, but until you are there you just dont really know. You can hope you would do this or that but in those few seconds that pass things can go really different than you would expect. If you blame him for murder you should also blame the soft judge's that let the perps, go in the past.
welcome
and you r correct soft law judges make long term crooks
Not near the message, lookin down that XD conveyed. Hopefully at least one of those kids learned something..
one thing learned
there was a very big S O B that was still up and watching the cameras out frt. i liked to never got out of that lazyboy couldnt get the thing to let me out!!!! [:D][:D] i did learn something also next time lets not bust out that door if they were 18-25 things may have not worked out to the good ( for me) [:(][:(][xx(][:(]
[/quote]
you should bust out with an AR or an AK bayonet included[}:)]
One neighbor with property returned. Sounds good to me.
Two dead criminals committing no more crimes. Sounds good to me.
Whats the problem?
Result;
Property gone, perps gone, owner violated, and neighbor left sucking his thumb.."If only I had had the courage to do what is right"...
On the rare occasion the perps are caught...result;
Short stay in jail, Bonded out, buko bucks spent on lawyers, judge turns slimebag out after another short stay in jail...or weasel lawyer finds loophole and perp walks...giving finger to all as he strolls out the door, already planning next job...
This situation..two dead slimebags...and traumatized next door owner, as officials terrorize him with what is going to happen next, as they prosecute him for doing what is right.
Its dangerous to be right when government is wrong...
Of course his 911 call won't bode well for him.
Nice shootin Tex!!! Situation sucks - but he did right by his neighbors.
Yep.
I'm taking bets, the shooter (hero to some of you) is going to be prosecuted and sent to prison. [^]
Probably prosecuted. After about three hung juries the prosecutor will give it up. By then the shooter will be so broke he may have to burglarize his neighbor for that bag of cash.
If the bad guys have relatives.....stay tuned for a civil suit.
Don't believe that will float in Texas either.
Whats your point ?
I'm taking bets, the shooter (hero to some of you) is going to be prosecuted and sent to prison. [^]
I'll take that bet
Is $20 reasonable?
At the range of 15 feet, a load of #4 from a 12 gauge will all but separate the foot from the leg, and all the King's horses, and all the King's men, won't put it back together again. Could well cause death.
Ask James RK, he saw a guy killed in similar fashion, but shot in the arm.
I doubt many who are not Texans understand how most of us see this. If you're my neighbor, we are connected in one way or another. I would defend your family and your property, and hope you would do the same for me.
I am with you 100% and I am an Oregonian! Criminals are bottom sucking scum and need to be punished, if society chooses not to do the job then the people will step up and do whats necessary. I hope America never becomes like the UK where criminals rule and society protects them and not its citizens who pay the salaries of the socialist bums who run that place. Sorry for the Rant![:0][:0]
quote:Originally posted by dheffley
quote:Originally posted by dano
If the bad guys have relatives.....stay tuned for a civil suit.
Don't believe that will float in Texas either.
Oh, I think it'll float alrighty.......[}:)]
The term...."Wrongful Death" comes to mind.....
OJ did a "wrongful death"
The Texas hero neighbor was just "taking out the trash". [^][^][:0]
Ask James RK, he saw a guy killed in similar fashion, but shot in the arm.
That was my cousin, the Corinth Mississippi cop. I was out of the state at the time and I can prove it. [:D]
He was called to the Dixie Dog Stand after the fact. The guy was dead when he got there. A guy shot him in the elbow, just to wound him. Witnesses said he just sat down on the curb, and died.
Oh, I think it'll float alrighty.......[}:)]
The term...."Wrongful Death" comes to mind.....
Ever heard of a Texas jury? They usually don't agree with families of criminals civally or criminally. This ain't Kalifornia!
Oh, I think it'll float alrighty.......[}:)]
The term...."Wrongful Death" comes to mind.....In Texas, "he needed killing" can sometimes still be a valid defense.
"Mr. Horn did not have to kill those people," Quanell X said during a protest. "Mr. Horn became judge, jury and executioner."
I'm sure he wasn't trying to kill them. He was firing warning shots at their kneecaps, and due to the stress of the situation, he hit a little high.
His mistake was being taped saying he was going to kill them. If he had just said he was going to detain them he probably would not be in so much trouble. We all need to be aware that the things we post here could come back to bite us someday.
Listen to the tape! What he said was, he was not going to let them get away with it (i.e. robbing the house next door). Then he went outside and said "Move and you're dead." They obviously moved. They were shot in the chest. This leads me to believe that they moved toward him, as it is kinda hard to shoot someone in the chest that isn't facing you. Sounds like self-defense to me.