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UPDATE pocket holsters is this AOW holster or not
CHEVELLE427
Member Posts: 6,750
picked this up for my keltec 380 auction states this does not fall under the ANY OTHER WEAPON rule because the slide is exposed and it is not made to
not look like a gun.
looking for what is your opinion from the Leo's point of view and any hidden ATF here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4o-jEcmp-U&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0T2e3upzig&feature=player_embedded
C&P
Up for auction is a shoot-through wallet holster for the Kel-tec P32 or P380. I began the process with a US - made Premium Grade Leather (Domestically Chrome Tanned, Finest Quality, "Struck-Through" in the Tanning Process- Brown all the way through). This leather is the finest quality you can buy. It is used in the making of motorcycle saddlebags. It is a heavy weight leather (8 - 9 ounce) and about 1/8" thick. Inside the holster is a piece of flexible industrial foam that fits perfectly to your Kel-tec to hold it tightly inside this holster. This foam is adhered to the leather with an industrial adhesive. I have added an extra finger hole for a better grip and to help improve accuracy. Three Chicago screws are added around the outside edge for extra support. If you have questions or would like more pictures, please email me at holsterpro@gmail.com. You may also watch my youtube video for more information. Thanks for looking.
not look like a gun.
looking for what is your opinion from the Leo's point of view and any hidden ATF here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4o-jEcmp-U&feature=player_embeddedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0T2e3upzig&feature=player_embeddedC&P
Up for auction is a shoot-through wallet holster for the Kel-tec P32 or P380. I began the process with a US - made Premium Grade Leather (Domestically Chrome Tanned, Finest Quality, "Struck-Through" in the Tanning Process- Brown all the way through). This leather is the finest quality you can buy. It is used in the making of motorcycle saddlebags. It is a heavy weight leather (8 - 9 ounce) and about 1/8" thick. Inside the holster is a piece of flexible industrial foam that fits perfectly to your Kel-tec to hold it tightly inside this holster. This foam is adhered to the leather with an industrial adhesive. I have added an extra finger hole for a better grip and to help improve accuracy. Three Chicago screws are added around the outside edge for extra support. If you have questions or would like more pictures, please email me at holsterpro@gmail.com. You may also watch my youtube video for more information. Thanks for looking.
Comments
Merc
I believe the criteria is that if it can be fired without removing from the "holster", it is illegal.
I've never heard or read this, but there is a lot I've never heard or read. Please expand on this.
I can carry a gun in my coat pocket and fire through my coat, what's the difference? My rubber pocket holster doesn't cover the trigger of my J frame S&W and I can fire it in the holster, useless of course, unless maybe in a pinch the whole damn holster came out with the pistol.
Somehow I am having trouble with the "illegal" part of this concept.
i called the local ATF here, the agent i talked to said this is not on the AOW list.
AOW holsters were the type that made the gun a fixed part of the holster
(had some type of screw that held the gun to the holster)
and didn't look like a gun.
he said as long as the slide is exposed and the gun is readily removable from the holster it is not an AOW.
didn't say anything about being able to shoot through the holster but then again the barrel is not in the holster.
HE DIDN'T HAVE MUCH GOOD TO SAY ABOUT A KELTEC .
seemed very helpful and said any other questions just call,
WHAT THE HELL IS THAT BLACK SUV DOING OUTSIDE oh crap it's
JACK BAUER
If the ATF agents around you are like the ones in Tampa they dont know sand from applebutter.[:(][:(]
High standard had an holster for their Derringer, the gun merely fit into the wallet and you could fire the gun without removing it. It was not attatched to the gun either. That wallet holster is illegal.
If the ATF agents around you are like the ones in Tampa they dont know sand from applebutter.[:(][:(]
called them first to get the local number the one i had was not in service, an agent from Tampa is suppose to call me also, lets see what he says?
I give Concealed classes and the laws are constantly being modified and Sometimes Fed Law conflicts with local law. Dont want to tell people the wrong information. That is why I call them, anytime I get alerted by the state of a change in gun laws, I need to check any conflicting information..
I call them a few times a year. I have never gotten a direct answer to any questions I have posed to them. It is "I will have to look it up in the book" Couple months later it is "We dont have that specific information at this time"
I give Concealed classes and the laws are constantly being modified and Sometimes Fed Law conflicts with local law. Dont want to tell people the wrong information. That is why I call them, anytime I get alerted by the state of a change in gun laws, I need to check any conflicting information..
THIS AGENT SOUNDED LIKE HE HAD ANSWERERS
he even said he had a few holsters in his desk that were AOW , said it sounds like IT IS NOT AN AOW and i responded (YET)
i liked the part were he asked why carry a 380, i told him it was for the hot days here were your T shirt doesn't hide my 45, he also said he has been doing this long enough he can tell most of the time if a person is carrying or not, most don't pay attention to printing or covering it up well enough.
should have said the DESERT EAGLE 50 was too heavy to carry
I e-mailed ATF about that exact holster last year. They had to send it to their enforcement department but finally got back to me in about a week. Their answer was that the holster itself is not illegal UNLESS you put a gun in it! (Ummmm...why else would you want it?) It then becomes a disguised weapon since you can fire it without removing it from the holster and therefore falls under the AOW category.
great RT hand has no clue what the LF hand is doing
more gov crazy snit, if i put it in a holster to protect it its BAD if i put the gun in my pocket it's GOOD .
what difference does it make ,
if i shoot someone in or out of a holster shot is still shot.
hell it is easer to shoot the gun out of the holster then in it
quote:Originally posted by Spider7115
I e-mailed ATF about that exact holster last year. They had to send it to their enforcement department but finally got back to me in about a week. Their answer was that the holster itself is not illegal UNLESS you put a gun in it! (Ummmm...why else would you want it?) It then becomes a disguised weapon since you can fire it without removing it from the holster and therefore falls under the AOW category.
great RT hand has no clue what the LF hand is doing
Duhhhh...We're talking about government employees here! [:D]
# you called. Time you called. Person you talked to.
Ben
Document your coversation.
# you called. Time you called. Person you talked to.
Ben
good point
Thanks to montanajoe I have a buckle that holds a mini revolver.
It's not legal to wear it with the gun attached though. OK, looked up the ATF newsletter and it does say the belt buckel gun is AOW too. Further, I wouldn't trust an ATF agent's advice without seeing it in print.
I would not carry the one pictured myself.
Also in above ex. you could pay the fee and register as AOW of course.
then it would set right in the back pocket or frt,
it would still look like a wallet to the bad guy asking for it,
so reach into the back pocket and let him have it.
then no questions about is or is not an
AOW.
UNLESS ATF RESPONDS TO MY EMAIL STATING DIFFERENT
Another example is the Pen guns. IF the gun can be fired while the pen is straight it = and AOW. IF the gun has to be rotated creating a grip before it can be fired it = pistol.
Here is some reading on what is what,
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf
The issue is the definition of a Pistol which is commonly held to have a "single downward grip". When you put them in a "wallet" holster that it can be fired from it no longer has a "single downward grip". So if you took a $10 UM pocket holster where the grip still sticks out and made it so you could fire your gun that would NOT be an AOW since it still has the "single downward grip".
Another example is the Pen guns. IF the gun can be fired while the pen is straight it = and AOW. IF the gun has to be rotated creating a grip before it can be fired it = pistol.
Here is some reading on what is what,
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf
THE ATF GUY did bring that up on the pen gun
Thanks to montanajoe I have a buckle that holds a mini revolver.
It's not legal to wear it with the gun attached though.
So it it one that the gun can be fired from the buckle? I thought on all the buckle holsters the gun had to be removed to be used. Am I wrong?
Very gray area. The criteria (one, anyway) is that it is an AOW if you can fire it without removing it from the holster......and that one looks like you can. Another criteria is "does it look like a gun" which that does to me. I wouldn't carry this without the papers saying it was an AOW! Err on the side of caution when it come to the JBTs!!!!!!
Merc
You can fire many handguns while they are still in the holster...would these all be AOW's too.?.?
quote:Originally posted by Nwcid
The issue is the definition of a Pistol which is commonly held to have a "single downward grip". When you put them in a "wallet" holster that it can be fired from it no longer has a "single downward grip". So if you took a $10 UM pocket holster where the grip still sticks out and made it so you could fire your gun that would NOT be an AOW since it still has the "single downward grip".
Another example is the Pen guns. IF the gun can be fired while the pen is straight it = and AOW. IF the gun has to be rotated creating a grip before it can be fired it = pistol.
Here is some reading on what is what,
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf
THE ATF GUY did bring that up on the pen gun
My point being it is a grip issue not an exposed slide, fixed to the gun, or not looking like a gun issue. It is a doesnt meet the ATF definition of a pistol because of lack of a grip.
Document your coversation.
# you called. Time you called. Person you talked to.
Ben
+1
quote: NO, it isn't an AOW.
If it covered the slide it would be, but it doesn't.
See this:
http://www.concealmentconcepts.com/pocketpal.htm
email sent.
from another form.
quote: NO, it isn't an AOW.
If it covered the slide it would be, but it doesn't.
See this:
http://www.concealmentconcepts.com/pocketpal.htm
HHHHMMMM interesting.
From the website "The gun actually shoots above the holster, not through it, and does not conceal the fact that is a gun once it is drawn.
It is actually considered a modified grip, and therefore, it does not fall into the AOW category".
My understanding after years of reading on the internet (were everything is true [}:)] ) that the problem is with the lack of a "single downward grip".
I see they keep saying it is not an AOW, but dont provide any proof. IF I was to buy a holster like this (or be the maker of one) I would want a letter from the ATF stating that it was not an AOW. Of course the ATF changes it mind all the time but at least you have some initial PROOF.
We can talk all day about what this is or isnt based on our understandings but the only one that can confirm or deny it is the ATF.
In fact, there are plenty of perfectly legal, perfectly conventional holsters where you can fire the gun through the holster.
Its an AOW if the holster makes the gun look like something OTHER than a gun **AND** you can fire it inside the holster.
In other words, a "wallet holster" that looks exactly like a wallet and lets you fire the gun from inside of it, is an AOW. If you encase your gun in a suitcase and can fire it with a button on the outside of the gun, that's an AOW, etc.
This thing is NOT an AOW, since when holding it in a shooting position, its obvious to any onlooker that you are holding a gun.
Dean
Being able to fire a gun through a holster does NOT make it an AOW
In fact, there are plenty of perfectly legal, perfectly conventional holsters where you can fire the gun through the holster.
Any by sheer coincidence, there is a whole other concurrent thread on a holster like this!
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=477813
I think everyone can agree here that
a. You can fire the gun when its in that holster, and
b. Its not an "AOW"!
Whether or not its a stupid holster design is a whole other matter. Personally I don't like holsters that leave the trigger exposed, but I suppose somebody must like them or they wouldn't be made!
The Kel Tec thing with the exposed slide is NOT an AOW, it does not encompass and disguise the entire firearm, and hence is not a "disguised firearm" which is one of the AOW criteria.
A pen gun which requires no mod to fire it IS an AOW, as it is a disguised firearm.
A pen gun (a la "Stinger") which requires the "pen" portion to be rotated and moved, is NOT. Because when turned to firing config., it no longer looks like a pen.
i emailed the 2 company that sell this and ask them if they had anything from ATF stating this was not an AOW
was told he would email me the ATF letter when he got back to the office, will post if/when it comes in
WELL I HAD PAGER PAL CALL ME TODAY AND SAID HE HAD PAPER WORK FROM ATF THAT THIS IS NOT AN AOW
but i don't think he is going to send it to me because i messed up when he ask were i bought it , and he said they don't sell there, tried to save it by saying it might have been used and a lot were interested in were to get one and i would pass his number along, but so far nothing[B)]
hope the other co calls and has papers
JUST IN
looks like they submitted 3 holsters and mine is the exhibit 1 holster
quote:Originally posted by Spider7115
I e-mailed ATF about that exact holster last year. They had to send it to their enforcement department but finally got back to me in about a week. Their answer was that the holster itself is not illegal UNLESS you put a gun in it! (Ummmm...why else would you want it?) It then becomes a disguised weapon since you can fire it without removing it from the holster and therefore falls under the AOW category.
great RT hand has no clue what the LF hand is doing
more gov crazy snit, if i put it in a holster to protect it its BAD if i put the gun in my pocket it's GOOD .
what difference does it make ,
if i shoot someone in or out of a holster shot is still shot.
hell it is easer to shoot the gun out of the holster then in it
HEY! I resemble that remark! [:D]
quote:Originally posted by CHEVELLE427
quote:Originally posted by Spider7115
I e-mailed ATF about that exact holster last year. They had to send it to their enforcement department but finally got back to me in about a week. Their answer was that the holster itself is not illegal UNLESS you put a gun in it! (Ummmm...why else would you want it?) It then becomes a disguised weapon since you can fire it without removing it from the holster and therefore falls under the AOW category.
great RT hand has no clue what the LF hand is doing
more gov crazy snit, if i put it in a holster to protect it its BAD if i put the gun in my pocket it's GOOD .
what difference does it make ,
if i shoot someone in or out of a holster shot is still shot.
hell it is easer to shoot the gun out of the holster then in it
HEY! I resemble that remark! [:D]
what one
LF....Locust Fork
i got it, slow tonight or was it last night ,