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Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition - 2008
FrancF
Member Posts: 35,279 ✭✭✭
The bulge under your fellow worshipper's suit jacket may not just be a bible tucked into the vest pocket.
Church-goers are more likely to be packing heat in the pews after deadly shootings at an Arvada missionary training center and a Colorado Springs megachurch, reports Hector Gutierrez.
Complicating the issue is the fact that many pastoral staffs don't know who among their flock is carrying a concealed weapon, security and law enforcement officials said Thursday during an informational meeting at the Heritage Christian Center in Arapahoe County. The meeting is a prelude to a three-day conference in November hosted by the National Association of Church and School Security.
John Casey, the former security director at New Life Church in Colorado Springs, where Matthew Murray shot and killed twin sisters in December, said that after the gunfire ended several congregants raced to their vehicles to retrieve firearms.
"It looked like an NRA convention," said Casey, who is president of Paragon Training Group Inc., which consults with churches, Christian schools and daycare centers on security.
Arriving Colorado Springs police officers were forced to sort out whether the congregants were also the bad guys and whether more attackers were involved, Casey said.
"It caused a lot of confusion," he said.
At the time of the killings, the security detail for New Life Church had a plan in place, assigning two plainclothes guards to be armed and two others to be unarmed. They also had an intelligence official who was aware of the earlier shooting in Arvada, he said.
Littleton police Sgt. Gene Enley said he attended a meeting at which 10 people showed up, and he asked how many carried firearms to their places of worship.
"Ten people raised their hands," the sergeant said. "Nine said that no one knew they carried guns."
Casey said it was up to each pastor to adopt a policy on whether church members should be permitted to carry firearms onto church grounds.
Church-goers are more likely to be packing heat in the pews after deadly shootings at an Arvada missionary training center and a Colorado Springs megachurch, reports Hector Gutierrez.
Complicating the issue is the fact that many pastoral staffs don't know who among their flock is carrying a concealed weapon, security and law enforcement officials said Thursday during an informational meeting at the Heritage Christian Center in Arapahoe County. The meeting is a prelude to a three-day conference in November hosted by the National Association of Church and School Security.
John Casey, the former security director at New Life Church in Colorado Springs, where Matthew Murray shot and killed twin sisters in December, said that after the gunfire ended several congregants raced to their vehicles to retrieve firearms.
"It looked like an NRA convention," said Casey, who is president of Paragon Training Group Inc., which consults with churches, Christian schools and daycare centers on security.
Arriving Colorado Springs police officers were forced to sort out whether the congregants were also the bad guys and whether more attackers were involved, Casey said.
"It caused a lot of confusion," he said.
At the time of the killings, the security detail for New Life Church had a plan in place, assigning two plainclothes guards to be armed and two others to be unarmed. They also had an intelligence official who was aware of the earlier shooting in Arvada, he said.
Littleton police Sgt. Gene Enley said he attended a meeting at which 10 people showed up, and he asked how many carried firearms to their places of worship.
"Ten people raised their hands," the sergeant said. "Nine said that no one knew they carried guns."
Casey said it was up to each pastor to adopt a policy on whether church members should be permitted to carry firearms onto church grounds.
Comments
Places Where Carrying Concealed is Prohibited
NOTE: In most, but not all, locations where concealed carry is prohibited, open carry is also prohibited.
Federal Property (concealed carry with CHP and hunting exempted in National Forests) (18USC ? 930)
General Assembly Building & property (open or concealed carry OK for CHP holders only) (JRC Rule)
State Parks (concealed carry w/CHP legal but open carry prohibited)
Virginia Commonwealth University (8VAC90-10-50)
Courthouses (?18.2-283.1)
Detention Facilities (?15.2-915)
K-12 school property (unless unloaded in a closed container). CHP holders may possess a loaded concealed handgun while in a vehicle. (?18.2-308.1)
K-12 school buses. (?18.2-308.1)
Property used exclusively for K-12 school-sponsored functions (?18.2-308.1)
Air carrier airport terminal buildings (?18.2-287.01)
Places of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held "without good and sufficient reason" (?18.2-283)
Restaurants & clubs serving on-premises alcohol (concealed carry prohibited, open carry NOT prohibited; owners & employees exempted) (?18.2-308.J3)
Private property when prohibited by owner (?18.2-308.O)
(From the VCDL website)
(I don't know what "good and sufficient reason" means.)
Not in Virginia, see below:
Places Where Carrying Concealed is Prohibited
NOTE: In most, but not all, locations where concealed carry is prohibited, open carry is also prohibited.
Federal Property (concealed carry with CHP and hunting exempted in National Forests) (18USC ? 930)
General Assembly Building & property (open or concealed carry OK for CHP holders only) (JRC Rule)
State Parks (concealed carry w/CHP legal but open carry prohibited)
Virginia Commonwealth University (8VAC90-10-50)
Courthouses (?18.2-283.1)
Detention Facilities (?15.2-915)
K-12 school property (unless unloaded in a closed container). CHP holders may possess a loaded concealed handgun while in a vehicle. (?18.2-308.1)
K-12 school buses. (?18.2-308.1)
Property used exclusively for K-12 school-sponsored functions (?18.2-308.1)
Air carrier airport terminal buildings (?18.2-287.01)
Places of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held "without good and sufficient reason" (?18.2-283)
Restaurants & clubs serving on-premises alcohol (concealed carry prohibited, open carry NOT prohibited; owners & employees exempted) (?18.2-308.J3)
Private property when prohibited by owner (?18.2-308.O)
(From the VCDL website)
(I don't know what "good and sufficient reason" means.)
Same here in Indiana Jim.
Seems you can't excersize two rights at once. You must pick either the forst or the second, NOT both ....[V]
Thats easy look at all the idiots in the world.
Then mention the churches that have been targeted. That to me is good and sufficient reason.
it is illegal to carry a firearm into any place of worship in virginia. that being so do you think that if someone started killing innocent worshipers in a church there and someone pulled a gun and shot the murderer, do you think the police would charge the person? and if so do you think they would be found guilty by a jury?
there have been cases here where someone has used a gun to defend themselves and the owner wasnt licenced and the firearm wasnt registered and they were not charged because it was clearly self defence and the authorities knew they would not get a conviction because of that.
do you think the same thing would happen in virginia?
jimdeere...a question for you.
it is illegal to carry a firearm into any place of worship in virginia. that being so do you think that if someone started killing innocent worshipers in a church there and someone pulled a gun and shot the murderer, do you think the police would charge the person? and if so do you think they would be found guilty by a jury?
there have been cases here where someone has used a gun to defend themselves and the owner wasnt licenced and the firearm wasnt registered and they were not charged because it was clearly self defence and the authorities knew they would not get a conviction because of that.
do you think the same thing would happen in virginia?
I doubt there would even be any charges filed in this county. We're next door to Virginia Tech where the massacre happened last year. One of our own was among the victims.
here we have a crazy system where you are not allowed to possess anything if your reason for having it is self defence, but you can use anything for self defence...if you are carrying a pocket knife and a cop asks you why you are carrying it and you say its for self defence it will be taken off you and you will be charged with possession of an offensive weapon...you have to lie and say its for work, or fishing etc...most cops will tell you to say that...crazy, crazy laws.we went from having some of the best laws in the world before 1996 to having some of the toughest overnight!
i hope it willnever get that bad in the u.s.a.