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What are the legalities

gearheaddadgearheaddad Member Posts: 15,091 ✭✭✭
edited September 2018 in General Discussion
of such a cane(gun)?
I'm under the impression it's a no no without an exemption from BATF....I've always thought age doesn't matter on such an item.
Thoughts?

https://www.GunBroker.com/item/785571050

Comments

  • mark christianmark christian Member Posts: 24,443 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    According to the seller it is a black powder antique, which means it is not even a firearm as far as the Feds are concerned. State laws are naturally all over the place on something like this. If it were a modern firearm firing a .410 shotgun shell then it would be an Any Other Weapon, much the same as a pen-gun or other "camouflaged" firearms.
  • gearheaddadgearheaddad Member Posts: 15,091 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by mark christian
    According to the seller it is a black powder antique, which means it is not even a firearm as far as the Feds are concerned. State laws are naturally all over the place on something like this. If it were a modern firearm firing a .410 shotgun shell then it would be an Any Other Weapon, much the same as a pen-gun or other "camouflaged" firearms.

    I understand that. But, I can walk into a sporting goods store and buy a box of 2 1/2" 410 shells and shoot that cane. Safe? who cares. I can still shoot it.......Probably depends on which agent on what day he/she comes across something like this.....
  • 1911a1-fan1911a1-fan Member Posts: 51,193 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Dumonthier is a center fire cane gun
  • 11b6r11b6r Member Posts: 16,584 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    From the BATF National Firearms handbook:

    Section 2.2 Antique firearm. Firearms defined by the NFA as ?antique firearms? are not subject to any controls under the NFA.22 The NFA defines antique firearms based on their date of manufacture and the type of ignition system used to fire a projectile. Any firearm manufactured in or before 1898 that is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition is an antique firearm. Additionally, any firearm using a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type ignition system, irrespective of the actual date of manufacture of the firearm, is also an antique firearm.

    NFA firearms using fixed ammunition are antique firearms only if the weapon was actually manufactured in or before 1898 and the ammunition for the firearm is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. To qualify as an antique firearm, a fixed cartridge firing NFA weapon must meet both the age and ammunition availability standards of the definition.

    Concerning ammunition availability, it is important to note that a specific type of fixed ammunition that has been out of production for many years may again become available due to increasing interest in older firearms. Therefore, the classification of a specific NFA firearm as an antique can change if ammunition for the weapon becomes readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
  • 1911a1-fan1911a1-fan Member Posts: 51,193 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    maybe im missing something here, but just because he states a patent date doesnt mean that is when this gun was manufactured, Dumonthier made this model till 1940 and is a .410 2-1/2" centerfire


    you can even see the firing pin and extractor in the pictures


    pix283522650.jpg




    corrected, thanks dads
  • discusdaddiscusdad Member Posts: 11,427 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    i thought the .410 only used 2-1/2 inch and 3 inch shotshells
  • kimikimi Member Posts: 44,719 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by gearheaddad
    of such a cane(gun)?
    I'm under the impression it's a no no without an exemption from BATF....I've always thought age doesn't matter on such an item.
    Thoughts?

    https://www.GunBroker.com/item/785571050


    Seems to me I have the same thoughts as you do, Ed, based on news that I had picked up here at GB. Probably over in the ATE forum.

    Added: I found this old thread!:

    https://forums.GunBroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=211102&SearchTerms=cane,gun
    What's next?
  • 11b6r11b6r Member Posts: 16,584 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Discusdad- early .410s were 2 inch, later changed to 2.5 inch, then to 3 inch.
  • discusdaddiscusdad Member Posts: 11,427 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    2 inch long before my time. i did not know that. thnx
  • Sam06Sam06 Member Posts: 21,244 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    That looks like if fires regular .410 shot shells. It doesn't look like a BP weapon that takes a cap at all.

    NFA firearms using fixed ammunition are antique firearms only if the weapon was actually manufactured in or before 1898 and the ammunition for the firearm is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. To qualify as an antique firearm, a fixed cartridge firing NFA weapon must meet both the age and ammunition availability standards of the definition

    I would say it violates the bold section.
    RLTW

  • BrookwoodBrookwood Member, Moderator Posts: 13,768 ******
    edited November -1
    There are a few firearms that kind of fit into the gray areas between the use of black powder and the newer modern smokeless powders.

    The old trapdoor Springfields are examples of arms that were made and designed to shoot cartridges in 45\70 using black powder for their propellant. Some will shoot these with smokeless but I would never recommend doing this. The barrel steel's utilized during this period were not up to modern proofed standards.

    You may get away with a few shots with modern ammo but it only takes one time when SHTF and you lose a lot more than the gun you are holding on to!!!
  • kimikimi Member Posts: 44,719 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Wonder where Ed is today? Figured he'd check in by now.
    What's next?
  • gearheaddadgearheaddad Member Posts: 15,091 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Sam06
    That looks like if fires regular .410 shot shells. It doesn't look like a BP weapon that takes a cap at all.

    NFA firearms using fixed ammunition are antique firearms only if the weapon was actually manufactured in or before 1898 and the ammunition for the firearm is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. To qualify as an antique firearm, a fixed cartridge firing NFA weapon must meet both the age and ammunition availability standards of the definition

    I would say it violates the bold section.




    That is my thought exactly.
    No sure I'd want to contest the fine points with the boys in sunglasses and dark suits!
    I'm right here James!
    Great guns, I agree. he does have some very cool old oddities listed!
    Thanks everyone for your input!
    Ed
  • kimikimi Member Posts: 44,719 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ding! Ding! Ding! 12:22 and all is well!!!! [:)]
    What's next?
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