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WWII Bombing Targets ?
tapwater
Member Posts: 10,336 ✭✭✭
..Just having one of those pondering thoughts. I read so much about the U.S. and British targeting places like Ploesti (oil) and Schweinfurt (ball bearing) plants, also hitting aircraft production and such.
..Living near the old Joliet Army Ammunition Plant got me thinking. Every country had to have massive facilities for explosives production. Did the U.S., Britain and Germany pinpoint these huge complexes? Japan, for instance spread out firearms manufacturing to the point of Mom & Pop shops filing out front sights! Explosives take a large complex of factory buildings.
..Naturally you want to remove the enemy's ability to make guns, tanks, planes, oil, etc. None of those would be useful without the explosives they carried, leaving the snake alive and crawling but without fangs. Were these plants pinpointed and made a priority?
..Living near the old Joliet Army Ammunition Plant got me thinking. Every country had to have massive facilities for explosives production. Did the U.S., Britain and Germany pinpoint these huge complexes? Japan, for instance spread out firearms manufacturing to the point of Mom & Pop shops filing out front sights! Explosives take a large complex of factory buildings.
..Naturally you want to remove the enemy's ability to make guns, tanks, planes, oil, etc. None of those would be useful without the explosives they carried, leaving the snake alive and crawling but without fangs. Were these plants pinpointed and made a priority?
Comments
1) Rocket Launching Platform - Calais, France
2) Oil Refinery Plant - Posen, Poland
3) Ball Bearing Factory - Regensburg, Germany
4) Ball Bearing Factory - Brunswick, Germany
5) Target - Berlin, mission recalled due to overcast
6) Target - Berlin, shot down over Hanover
Just looking through my grandfathers mission history in WWII. He was a crew member on a B-17. Before being shot down, his targets were:
1) Rocket Launching Platform - Calais, France
2) Oil Refinery Plant - Posen, Poland
3) Ball Bearing Factory - Regensburg, Germany
4) Ball Bearing Factory - Brunswick, Germany
5) Target - Berlin, mission recalled due to overcast
6) Target - Berlin, shot down over Hanover
..If I had the right, I'd salute your Grandpa. Since I didn't earn
that right, I'll just say thank you and I'm thankful for men like
him...[^]
http://www.thirdreichruins.com/thuringen.htm
http://www.thirdreichruins.com/mittelwerk.htm
Just looking through my grandfathers mission history in WWII. He was a crew member on a B-17. Before being shot down, his targets were:
1) Rocket Launching Platform - Calais, France
2) Oil Refinery Plant - Posen, Poland
3) Ball Bearing Factory - Regensburg, Germany
4) Ball Bearing Factory - Brunswick, Germany
5) Target - Berlin, mission recalled due to overcast
6) Target - Berlin, shot down over Hanover
Huge salute to any man who flew the Regensburg mission and had the balls to climb back into a B-17.
146 B-17s took off. 24 were lost. 60 of the remainder were damaged.
Brad Steele
Germany also went as far as to have some of the small arms munitions being manufactured at the concentration camps and the Allies did not want to kill innocent prisoners in those raids.
Just looking through my grandfathers mission history in WWII. He was a crew member on a B-17. Before being shot down, his targets were:
1) Rocket Launching Platform - Calais, France
2) Oil Refinery Plant - Posen, Poland
3) Ball Bearing Factory - Regensburg, Germany
4) Ball Bearing Factory - Brunswick, Germany
5) Target - Berlin, mission recalled due to overcast
6) Target - Berlin, shot down over Hanover
Jeep
When was he over Reagansburg? My dad was there on 2 occaisions got shot down Feb 23 44, on his 37th mission, went back and did 14 more for 51 total. I have all info on his service.
Here is a link to his page
http://www.301bg.com/Jacob_Cornelius_J9022_301BG.cfm
After the war, Albert Speer said that if the Allies had focused only on one of the targeted aspects of the German war machine - transportation, chemicals, dams/power supply, etc. - that the war would have been over in 1943. Speer said that the way it was, Organization Todt was enabled to keep up with the repairs to railways, bridges, etc., and that he was able to keep up with the damages to the different industrial infrastructures, for a much longer period of time. He said that at one point, lack of electrical power had Germany down to a 6-month supply of ammunition of all types (that which was already in the pipelines and sitting at transit points), because nothing else was coming off the production lines. But the power grid, like so many other aspects, was given a reprieve. Speer said that eventually, everything went into the toilet, but that the end was delayed for an extremely long time, as opposed to pounding one critical aspect to complete powder.
quote:Originally posted by Jeepgod2002
Just looking through my grandfathers mission history in WWII. He was a crew member on a B-17. Before being shot down, his targets were:
1) Rocket Launching Platform - Calais, France
2) Oil Refinery Plant - Posen, Poland
3) Ball Bearing Factory - Regensburg, Germany
4) Ball Bearing Factory - Brunswick, Germany
5) Target - Berlin, mission recalled due to overcast
6) Target - Berlin, shot down over Hanover
Jeep
When was he over Reagansburg? My dad was there on 2 occaisions got shot down Feb 23 44, on his 37th mission, went back and did 14 more for 51 total. I have all info on his service.
Here is a link to his page
http://www.301bg.com/Jacob_Cornelius_J9022_301BG.cfm
His mission over Regensburg was February 24, 1944. He said they encountered flak and fighters but were not hit. They were shot down on March 8,1944 and he was taken POW (MACR 3193). I emailed him your dad's webpage link.
But sometimes cities were bombed just because they were full of the enemy (think of London's Blitz or the destruction of Dresden), or unexpected cloud cover would prevent accurate aiming. The Germans had smoke making units around important facilities to prevent accurate bombing. Today that would be called terror bombing.
It's been said that war is hell, and I don't think we should ever forget that. And if we should ever decide to engage in war, we should be prepared to deliver hell to our enemies in every available manner until they no longer present any threat or have no means of waging war.
views and info and thanks to all your kin that were there. One of my
uncles flew out of England and another was in Europe for the duration, including Bastogne.
..MG Moran, it's interesting that Speer mentioned one critical aspect could have shortened the war. That was my point in the original post.
quote:Originally posted by B17-P51
quote:Originally posted by Jeepgod2002
Just looking through my grandfathers mission history in WWII. He was a crew member on a B-17. Before being shot down, his targets were:
1) Rocket Launching Platform - Calais, France
2) Oil Refinery Plant - Posen, Poland
3) Ball Bearing Factory - Regensburg, Germany
4) Ball Bearing Factory - Brunswick, Germany
5) Target - Berlin, mission recalled due to overcast
6) Target - Berlin, shot down over Hanover
Jeep
When was he over Reagansburg? My dad was there on 2 occaisions got shot down Feb 23 44, on his 37th mission, went back and did 14 more for 51 total. I have all info on his service.
Here is a link to his page
http://www.301bg.com/Jacob_Cornelius_J9022_301BG.cfm
His mission over Regensburg was February 24, 1944. He said they encountered flak and fighters but were not hit. They were shot down on March 8,1944 and he was taken POW (MACR 3193). I emailed him your dad's webpage link.
Thanks Jeep
Clicking on the MACR reports and the Pdf at the bottom of the page will reveal more.
Brave men......
It's very beautiful...well anyway while looking around I happened to see an older gentleman dressed in a military hat and coat walk up to a lectern carved with a large eagle. On the lectern was a large leather covered book...the man saluted and then turned the page...saluted again and walked away.
I asked a member of the staff what was up. I was told the book contained the names of all the American airmen killed in action and that everyday the page was turned so a different list of names can be seen.
The Limies do it with class..
I've mentioned before that my grandfather was also B-17 crew (radio man) in a B-17G, over Italy, though, not Germany/France.
A lot of his missions were manufacturing facilities. I'll try to check his records after dinner to see the specifics.
One consideration (conjecture) re: parts manufacturing vs explosives. explosives factories were probably more aggressively defended. Missions against manufacturing could have positive effect with less risk.
You take out explosives, you still have guys with planes to fly, tanks to drive, subs to sail... maybe they don't have as many bombs, shells, or torpedoes as would be optimal, but they have them.
Take out oil... suddenly the enemy is a largely immobile force of 19th century infantry, and nothing more.
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
After the disaster at Schweinfurt, US bombing strategy changed from tactical bombing to strategic bombing like the British were doing.
By 'disaster', I assume you're referring to how many losses the 8th suffered during the raids. Dad was in the 381st Bombardment Group Heavy, 533rd Squadron. He was there, over Schweinfurt, 17 August 1943. Of all the missions he was on (and it was a lot...3 tours), this is the one he talked of the most. He used to say, "the flak like an evil black carpet, so thick it looked like you could step out and walk on it". He often said it was the only day he was truly afraid, afraid he wouldn't make it home again.
The B-17G he was in, Big Mike, was heavily damaged shortly after the target. Three of the crew were killed and two more were mortally wounded. Engines #3 and #4 were out and the right wing was heavily damaged. The right main gear was destroyed, and engine #4 was still on fire. The tail was nearly shot in two.
They were losing airspeed and altitude, and dropped from formation (almost certain death). Because they were still on fire they had to perform a maneuver (I forget what it was called) which required them to go into a steep dive while they still had altitude and attempt to literally burn the engine off the wing. On the way down they were ambushed by several ME-109's who were coming in for the kill. They didn't burn the engine off, but they did get the fire out. The ME-109's cut them to ribbons, killing the pilot and one of the badly wounded men and wounding the co-pilot. They were credited with one confirmed kill (and possibly a second which couldn't be confirmed).
Miraculously, they managed to level off and make it back across the channel (no small feat!). They crashed attempting a gear up landing at Ridgewell, hit the runway hard and slid off into a stand of trees.
Their B-17, Big Mike, would go on to USAAF legend status. Short on planes and parts, their crew chief, a guy nicknamed 'Frenchy', said he could rebuild Big Mike. Everyone thought he was crazy. His plan was to take a wing from a B-17F model and bolt it on the G model. It had never been done. Just getting approval to even attempt it required approval from the very top, Curtis LeMay himself.
In record time, repairs no one even thought possible were completed. The airframe was re-named "Frenchy's Folly". Dad flew on Frenchy's Folly for the rest of his final tour...and even flew it back stateside. Dad used to say "they had to take volunteers to fly on that plane, no one wanted to do it. But I stepped right up; I figured if the Germans couldn't kill that old girl that day over Schweinfurt then they never would."
Now that is one hell of a war story! Hats off to those men!
Here's what my Grandpa did. It was a pretty common thing to do.
Turned it into a spreadsheet like this:
Resulting in a target list something like:
ball bearing factory, Turin, Italy
Railway yard, Bolzano, Italy
Submarine Base, Toulon, France
Grossette Airbase, Marsailles, France
Submarine Pens, Marsailles, France
Kalamaki A/D, Athens, Greece
Marshalling yards
shipping installation
aircraft factory
bridges
Railhead
Monastery
Beachhead, Anzio, Italy (Enemy concentration) Feb 17, 1944*
etc., for 50 missions.
Each bomb tag has details of mission number (by his own personal # 1-50), pilot, plane tail number, takeoff time, target eta, landing time, field flown from, target & location, bomb load, escort plane (often p-38 or p-47), enemy resistance, & friendly losses.
*From wikipedia entry on the Battle of Anzio:
quote:On February 16 the Germans launched a new offensive (Operation Fischfang) down the line of the Via Anziate. By February 18, after desperate fighting, the Allies' Final Beachhead Line (prepared defenses more or less on the line of the original beachhead) was under attack. However, a counterattack using VI Corps' reserves halted the German advance, and on February 20, Fischfang petered out with both sides exhausted. During Fischfang the Germans had sustained some 5,400 casualties, the Allies 3,500. Both had suffered 20,000 casualties each since the first landings.[32] Also on February 18 while returning to Anzio the light cruiser HMS Penelope was struck by two torpedoes and sunk with a loss of 417 men.[citation needed] Despite the exhausted state of the troops, Hitler insisted that 14th Army should continue to attack.[33] Despite the misgivings of both Kesselring and von Mackensen,[34] a further assault was mounted on February 29, this time on LXXVI Panzer Corps' front[35] around Cisterna. This push achieved little except to generate a further 2500 casualties for the 14th Army.[36]
Col. Young accepted the bet, telling Col. Sink that he would put him within 300 yards of the building which had been designated from daylight aerial photos as Sink's command post. Sink landed within 200 yards, and one of his following staff officers actually landed in the yard. Later in England, Sink paid Young double the bet [:)].
There has been a lot made of supposed ineptness on the part of of the Troop Carriers, but most of it is fiction, invented by the 'history' writer Stephen Ambrose. Ambrose also wrote of supposed acts of cowardice by the Navy, Coast Guard, and Royal Navy boat drivers who landed the infantry on the beaches. It has been proven that Ambrose could never have interviewed anyone from the boats he identified, because after battle casualties and the passage of decades, there were no survivors.
There were some serious mis-drops, but far fewer than has been fictionalized. The Brits refused to go along with a night drop at all (until personally ordered to do so by Ike), because they believed that it would be entirely ineffective. The after-action reports concluded that it had been 85% effective, when 50% effectiveness was what had been hoped for. There were lots of anomalies, besides mis-drops. One group of paratroopers walked over six miles looking for their drop zone, and when they found out where they were, they had to walk six miles back, because they had landed in it.
My dad's element lost three aircraft on the way in, one with all paratroopers, one with most, and the third was kept in the air although the left wing was a sheet of flame, with the paratroopers jumping through the fire. The crew made it out last, but the pilot, a Lt. Muir, had no time to jump, and went in with the plane.
A lot of the planes came back with paratroopers who had been wounded by ground fire, before reaching the drop zones. A few returned with 'refusals to jump'. Half of the aircraft in serial 12 had been hit, and half of those (25% of the total) had been hit so hard that they had to be written off after their return to England. The losses in aircraft didn't slow the 439th down a bit, because they had been built up to double strength prior to the invasion. The 439th was normally comprised of 200 aircraft, and an additional 200 had been assigned. I assume the same was true with other AAF units. Eisenhower was determined to hit the Germans with everything the U.S. war machine could produce.