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  • gunnut505gunnut505 Member Posts: 10,290
    edited November -1
    It's murder.
    This guy might have had a troubled past, but the local stations are all falling in lockstep with (brand new) Police Chief Gordon Eden's assertions that only 2 cops fired, and each only fired 3 shots.
    KOAT TV's video shows what happened right after the cops (who were concerned about this guy's welfare, or so it goes) exploded a flash bang right in front of this guy, and released the K9.
    The guy reaches down to shoo or stab the dog, and it turns away and crouches about 10 feet in front of the guy.
    The K9 handler wanders up, closer to the guy, grabs the dog, and starts to back away when the guy starts to turn around and 9 shots are heard.
    He falls to the ground and pleads not to be hurt anymore, then is hit with a few beanbags in the groinal area.
    This department has already earned 3 investigations from the DOJ, and now there's another shooting/killing by APD.
    I think that makes 18 or so in the last year.
    Facts are:
    The guy was ok until the cops showed up.
    The cops decided to escalate over 4 hours, because the guy was being defensive in his stance, and verbally threatening NINE fully armed and armored "professionals".
    He had a pocketknife in one hand, and another in his pocket.
    Lots of bums sleep in the Foothills where this guy was, hell, I used to camp in the Foothills as a kid.
    9 shots are heard on the tape.
    It's murder.
  • wifetrainedwifetrained Member Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I lived in Albuquerque for over 5 years in the 90's, APD has a long history of abuse.
  • 1911a1-fan1911a1-fan Member Posts: 51,193 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    perfectly acceptable, the cop did not know it was illegal
  • dcon12dcon12 Member Posts: 32,040 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by 1911a1fan
    perfectly acceptable, the cop did not know it was illegal


    Uninformed! Don
  • woodhogwoodhog Member Posts: 13,115 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    guess they are pretty serious about not camping there...
  • Plain ole bubbaPlain ole bubba Member Posts: 472 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Don't say stupid!
  • pwilliepwillie Member Posts: 20,253 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    ...and it will escalate!
  • CbtEngr01CbtEngr01 Member Posts: 4,340
    edited November -1
  • Laredo LeftyLaredo Lefty Member Posts: 13,451 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    At the beginning of the tape he says to the police "In the private world, If you were down at a bar or a bus stop I have the right to kill you right now"
    Not a good idea.

    Then according to the article.......
    "Boyd appears to pull out knives in both hands as an officer with a dog approaches him. He makes a threatening motion toward the officer, then starts to turn around away from police."

    This is starting to NOT sound like a murder.
  • He DogHe Dog Member Posts: 51,593 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Yeah It was self defense, he threatened them with two knives from 35 feet away. It was murder, something which APD has a long history of especially when it comes to the mentally ill street people.
  • COLTCOLT Member Posts: 12,637 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:At the beginning of the tape he says to the police "In the private world, If you were down at a bar or a bus stop I have the right to kill you right now"


    Really? That statement is VERY close to crossing the line and becomming a Terroristic threat on an Officers life...plenty to put all Officers on alert, all Officers involved.

    quote:"Boyd appears to pull out knives in both hands as an officer with a dog approaches him. He makes a threatening motion toward the officer, then starts to turn around away from police."


    NOT too smart considering what is easily interpretid as a threat on Officers.
    I guess some people here would have been in the Officers situation and have ignored what he had just said,, doubt if any Officer should give a second thought about their own safety, after all he was just camping...and everyone knows if someone is camping they would never kill anyone...[^]
  • skicatskicat Member Posts: 14,431
    edited November -1
    All things being equal, from what I saw on the video, the guy was not happy with the cops but agreed to walk down the mountain with them. He told them not to change the deal and that he was not a murderer and wanted to keep everyone safe. He was collecting his backpack and readying to accompany the officers. I heard an officer say "do it" just before a flashbang grenade goes off and the K-9 officer releases his dog.

    So from that I would say that the ones who escalated the affair to the lethal level was the police.

    I am not prepared for the mental gymnastics required to justify 9 armed and armored cops killing an individual armed with a pocket knife no matter how crazy he was talking. I am also not prepared to classify movement to avoid grenades and attack dogs as threatening. Simple question...who attacked whom first?
  • MobuckMobuck Member Posts: 14,163 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If an individual threatened ME with a "pocket knife" from several feet away but turned to move away, I would not be justified in firing 9 shots.
    How it would have played out if the fuzzy guys had just approached and discussed the problem with the guy in a reasonable and respectful manner will never be known.
  • riflemikeriflemike Member Posts: 10,599
    edited November -1
    waiting for the defenders of the out of control cops to come along......they know who they are..these cowards dont have guns or dogs my daughter could probably whip their butts

    lets see, folks been shot/killed for jaywalking if i remember correctly,,, now illegal camping, having their dog on a lease that the cops say was attacking, old folks in their home in their bed, one had a cane the cop thought was a gun, kicking in doors at the wrong house,,toy guns that were never pointed at them, feel free to add to the list
  • riflemikeriflemike Member Posts: 10,599
    edited November -1
    which one would you feel more comfortable around..just wait til all the old school cops are gone and all we have are the shaved headed thugs...i remember the motorcycle cops like these...and the cars with one light ...now they dress like storm troopers and the cars have more lights than the close encounters space ship..
    SWAT-entry.jpg

    cop_1.jpg
  • Smoky14Smoky14 Member Posts: 531 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I live in NM and refuse to go through ABQ for any reason. Your chances of getting shot are not worth the time saved going around that place. There is yet another DOJ investigation in progress over APD shootings.

    YMMV Smoky
  • TooBigTooBig Member Posts: 28,559 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If you shot a person at 35 ft Claiming self defense how would that work out for you.
  • retroxler58retroxler58 Member Posts: 32,693 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by riflemike
    which one would you feel more comfortable around..just wait til all the old school cops are gone and all we have are the shaved headed thugs...i remember the motorcycle cops like these...and the cars with one light ...now they dress like storm troopers and the cars have more lights than the close encounters space ship..
    SWAT-entry.jpg

    cop_1.jpg
    I've seen it transcend from the days of Mayberry RFD to the current 'Storm Trooper' state...

    It scares the hell outta me... Maybe that's the intended result. [?]
  • riflemikeriflemike Member Posts: 10,599
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by retroxler58
    quote:Originally posted by riflemike
    which one would you feel more comfortable around..just wait til all the old school cops are gone and all we have are the shaved headed thugs...i remember the motorcycle cops like these...and the cars with one light ...now they dress like storm troopers and the cars have more lights than the close encounters space ship..
    SWAT-entry.jpg

    cop_1.jpg
    I've seen it transcend from the days of Mayberry RFD to the current 'Storm Trooper' state...

    It scares the hell outta me... Maybe that's the intended result. [?]




    yes itimidation is the goal......
  • COLTCOLT Member Posts: 12,637 ******
    edited November -1
    ...Stick to talking about the POSTED article, "just the related facts ma'am, just the facts", head into the general cop bashing bashing area and we will get locked...since this is NOT, & will NOT become a cop bashing forum...[;)]
  • shilowarshilowar Member Posts: 38,811 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bad things happen when you pull knives on police, unfortunately the video is distorted at the time of the shooting so we don't get to see what he's doing. We also don't see the beginning of the contact, or have any knowledge of what led up to the contact other than the slanted article that the video appears in. There seems that there were less lethal options available, but I don't know the background of the situations to make those determinations.
  • capguncapgun Member Posts: 1,848
    edited November -1
    The guy had knives. He could have been a professional knife thrower and thrown the knives from 30 feet with deadly accuracy. The officers feared for their lives and wanted to go home at the end of their shift. Officers are not expected to take any risks just to keep from killing someone.
  • RugerNinerRugerNiner Member Posts: 12,636 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    One of the officers who was involved, Keith Sandy has a notable history in New Mexico law enforcement. APD hired Sandy in 2007 after he was fired by New Mexico State Police over the Wackenhut scandal. Sandy was accused of fraud for making money doing private security work while on the clock for State Police.

    When Sandy was hired by APD, the department said he would be a civilian employee and he wouldn't have a gun or a badge. However, Sandy quickly rose through the department, landing on the ROPE Team, which goes after repeat offenders or some of the city's most dangerous criminals.

    http://krqe.com/2014/03/21/apd-officer-involved-shooting-was-justified/
    Keep your Powder dry and your Musket well oiled.
    NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
  • Rocky RaabRocky Raab Member Posts: 14,499 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It has been proven many times that a guy with a knife can cover 30+ feet and have your guts on the floor in a little over 1.5 seconds.

    "Killed for illegal camping" is about as accurate as saying a condemned child killer was executed for eating his last meal.
    I may be a bit crazy - but I didn't drive myself.
  • RugerNinerRugerNiner Member Posts: 12,636 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Rocky Raab
    It has been proven many times that a guy with a knife can cover 30+ feet and have your guts on the floor in a little over 1.5 seconds.

    "Killed for illegal camping" is about as accurate as saying a condemned child killer was executed for eating his last meal.

    For more than 20 years now, a concept called the 21-Foot Rule has been a core component in training officers to defend themselves against edged weapons.

    Originating from research by Salt Lake City trainer Dennis Tueller and popularized by the Street Survival Seminar and the seminal instructional video "Surviving Edged Weapons," the "rule" states that in the time it takes the average officer to recognize a threat, draw his sidearm and fire 2 rounds at center mass, an average subject charging at the officer with a knife or other cutting or stabbing weapon can cover a distance of 21 feet.

    http://www.policeone.com/edged-weapons/articles/102828-Edged-Weapon-Defense-Is-or-was-the-21-foot-rule-valid-Part-1/
    Keep your Powder dry and your Musket well oiled.
    NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
  • wartigerwartiger Member Posts: 3,861
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Rocky Raab
    It has been proven many times that a guy with a knife can cover 30+ feet and have your guts on the floor in a little over 1.5 seconds.

    "Killed for illegal camping" is about as accurate as saying a condemned child killer was executed for eating his last meal.



    You refer to the old "rule of 21"....Meaning a person with a knife can cover the 21 feet faster than the average person can un-holster, draw and fire. Normally I would say you're right....but given the rocky terrain and the fact there were guns ALREADY aimed at this individual, that rule doesn't apply. From watching the video, I definitely see the heightened state of alert of the officers based on the comments the guy said and his defiant stance / attituide, but the whole flash-bang was un-called for. From what I can tell, that's what escalated this into a deadly shooting. Senseless and so very avoidable, in my opinion.
  • Sam06Sam06 Member Posts: 21,244 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    In the article the photo has a cop with a pump shotgun with the yellow stock, I thought that was a "bean Bag" gun. Why didn't they use that if they thought he was attacking?


    These guys look like a clown show
    SWAT-entry.jpg
    RLTW

  • riflemikeriflemike Member Posts: 10,599
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by wartiger
    quote:Originally posted by Rocky Raab
    It has been proven many times that a guy with a knife can cover 30+ feet and have your guts on the floor in a little over 1.5 seconds.

    "Killed for illegal camping" is about as accurate as saying a condemned child killer was executed for eating his last meal.



    You refer to the old "rule of 21"....Meaning a person with a knife can cover the 21 feet faster than the average person can un-holster, draw and fire. Normally I would say you're right....but given the rocky terrain and the fact there were guns ALREADY aimed at this individual, that rule doesn't apply. From watching the video, I definitely see the heightened state of alert of the officers based on the comments the guy said and his defiant stance / attituide, but the whole flash-bang was un-called for. From what I can tell, that's what escalated this into a deadly shooting. Senseless and so very avoidable, in my opinion.


    i can run 21 feet in the opposite direction faster than someone comeing at me with a knife can[}:)]
  • gunnut505gunnut505 Member Posts: 10,290
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Sam06
    In the article the photo has a cop with a pump shotgun with the yellow stock, I thought that was a "bean Bag" gun. Why didn't they use that if they thought he was attacking?


    These guys look like a clown show
    SWAT-entry.jpg



    He actually has a yellow band of tape on the barrel of the "beanbag" gun.
    You can see it quite clearly in the ( KOAT TV channel 7) video, shooting at the guy's groin 3 times after 12 shots (not 9) rang out from at least 2 AR-type rifles and a pistol, lying on the ground, begging them not to hurt him anymore.
    The "standoff" took over 5 hours to accomplish, and it was allegedly started to check on his welfare.
    The guy was a vagabond with previously diagnosed mental issues; he thought (I'm sure) that because there was a crowd of armed and armored cops around, that they probably wouldn't shoot him dead.
    Sure, he talked a lot of smack to the cops over the course of the confrontation, but where would bad language justify killing him?

    The last police chief we had quit after getting a job in Round Rock, Texas (probably so he could charge per diem for having to travel back to answer charges brought by the DOJ).

    The new chief used to be a US Marshal, a liaison for the SS (no, no; the Secret Service, not the other guys), and brings a "new" attitude concerning "transparency".

    So far in the last 12-18 months, APD has killed a few Vets, some bums, a couple of bystanders, and ignored a mom & dad involved in kicking their son to death (the Dad was arrested for driving around MY neighborhood with a set of scales, a small amount of pot, 210 grams of meth, a bag of heroin, and a gun). Guess they didn't want to violate their right to retroactively abort their 12 year-old Son.
  • wpagewpage Member Posts: 10,201 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Oh for the days of Barney Fife and his one bullet...
    Vs Jack booted storm troopers killing campers.

    My how things have changed![}:)]
  • legearlegear Member Posts: 6,716
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by COLT
    ...Stick to talking about the POSTED article, "just the related facts ma'am, just the facts", head into the general cop bashing bashing area and we will get locked...since this is NOT, & will NOT become a cop bashing forum...[;)]


    Looks like general discussion in a general discussion forum.
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