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This has been an interesting thread to follow.
I'm a teacher; music and bands grades 1-12.
At least once per year we have a lockdown drill where were all cover and cower. I don't like it. I doubt that the piece of paper we hang over the window in the door is going to stop any bullets. Same goes for the "Weapons Free Zone" stickers at the entrances. For me, or ANY other civilian, to walk in the door carrying could/would result in jail time should it be discovered. I don't like it, but it's probably better that way. I figure I have a much better chance of wining the lottery than of ever encountering an active shooter at school.
quote:Originally posted by 1BigGuy
This has been an interesting thread to follow.
I'm a teacher; music and bands grades 1-12.
At least once per year we have a lockdown drill where were all cover and cower. I don't like it. I doubt that the piece of paper we hang over the window in the door is going to stop any bullets. Same goes for the "Weapons Free Zone" stickers at the entrances. For me, or ANY other civilian, to walk in the door carrying could/would result in jail time should it be discovered. I don't like it, but it's probably better that way. I figure I have a much better chance of wining the lottery than of ever encountering an active shooter at school.
It you did happen to pick the winning numbers, it would be nice if you bought a ticket though, right? Same thing for an active shooter. Remember, it only needs to happen once to ruin your life.
There is no question that if an active shooter is at a school it would be good if some good guy was there with a gun to stop the threat. I think that good guy should be a law enforcement person or a highly trained, qualified civilian. Having a bunch of teachers, untrained in law enforcement, walking around schools all day amid students while armed would result in problems. There are some violent, mentally unstable kids in schools. Armed teachers would allow them access to a firearm. Most teachers, particularly women, could not repel being overpowered and disarmed by a physical student or group of students. Cops at the schools are the best defense. But there is a problem. How many schools are in your city? Could your city afford to hire enough cops to put one in each school? These active shooters at schools are really a very rare occurrence. Every school should have entry access security and a security plan for teachers to follow to protect the children if an attack occurs. All school personnel should be trained how to best protect the children until police arrive. Locking doors on all classrooms and offices, an alarm system, and established communication procedures would help.
Well put Dennis. I would hate to live in capgun's world where the entire class wants to overpower weak, helpless women. Having a cop on campus does just slightly more than calling 911. If the shooter is in a classroom and the ONE law enforcement on the other side of campus. Also, think of how much it would cost to have an officer dedicated to every single school. And making schools like a TSA screening at the airport won't stop anything.
Why do you assume that teachers are unqualified to use a gun or handle stressful situations? You are correct that they are not law enforcement officers. They are child specialists. They handle large groups of children better than most cops could ever hope to.
And look at all of the major mass school shootings in the past. None of them were crimes of opportunity. They were planned out. A kid isn't going to just realize that a teacher has a gun and take it and start shooting people. They want lots of ammo and targets. If a guy tried to jump a teacher to grab a gun, there would be others jumping on that kid. You underestimate teachers and you underestimate some of the youth.
quote:Originally posted by calrugerfan
Well put Dennis. I would hate to live in capgun's world where the entire class wants to overpower weak, helpless women. Having a cop on campus does just slightly more than calling 911. If the shooter is in a classroom and the ONE law enforcement on the other side of campus. Also, think of how much it would cost to have an officer dedicated to every single school. And making schools like a TSA screening at the airport won't stop anything.
Why do you assume that teachers are unqualified to use a gun or handle stressful situations? You are correct that they are not law enforcement officers. They are child specialists. They handle large groups of children better than most cops could ever hope to.
And look at all of the major mass school shootings in the past. None of them were crimes of opportunity. They were planned out. A kid isn't going to just realize that a teacher has a gun and take it and start shooting people. They want lots of ammo and targets. If a guy tried to jump a teacher to grab a gun, there would be others jumping on that kid. You underestimate teachers and you underestimate some of the youth.
Most all these school shooting were done by school kids, but you do not think a kid would take a teachers gun to harm someone? Who knows how many bullied, distraught kids did not kill other kids because they did not have access to a firearm at home to bring to school. Kids are impulsive. School shootings have been planned, because kids did not have access to guns at school. Fights and arguments at school are an everyday occurrence. In a fit of anger a kid could grab an unprepared teachers gun and shoot his aggressor. "If a guy tried to jump a teacher to grab a gun, there would be others jumping on that kid. You underestimate teachers and you underestimate some of the youth." Come now. Have you seen school fights? No other kids intervene, they watch and find it entertaining. Including attacks on teachers. Underestimate teachers? Hardly, I have seen teachers in action in circumstances they are not prepared to handle. Like I said there are some exceptional teachers, who because of their background are trained and experienced in handling emergency situations, who I would trust with a firearm at school. But they are very few.
quote:Originally posted by calrugerfan
If the shooter is in a classroom and the ONE law enforcement on the other side of campus. Also, think of how much it would cost to have an officer dedicated to every single school. And making schools like a TSA screening at the airport won't stop anything.
As stated; Florida schools have cops (plural) Connecticut schools "have please don't kill us unarmed people" signs
Need I compare results?
What you aren't getting is the simple fact when there is a known certain unarmed area where a mass murder can be assured and immortality gained by a psychopathic moron and a willing to glorify media the killer believes or perceives he can accomplish his goal.
If it is "known" there are trained well armed police on campus he perceives the ability to accomplish the crime is hindered if not made impossible and he will again be seen as the failure he perceives himself to be.
He requires a sure result and armed police make that unlikely.
At Sandy Hook he came to the entrance and shot his way in because there was no armed defense.
At a Florida school he would be met with defensive fire and while nothing is certain as to outcome that uncertainty is what upsets his plans to accomplish his goal and therefore prevents his attempt.
Now, notice the gun free zone mass murders in schools in such states and the lack of mass murders in Florida schools.
Got math?
Nothing is certain but chance favors the prepared man (Ansel Adams)
Wulfmann
"Fools learn from their own mistakes. I learn from the mistakes of others"
Otto von Bismarck
Wulfmann - multiple cops is effective but how many states/jurisdictions can afford to hire multiple cops for each school? And while cops are a deterrent, in an actual active shooter situation, they would not be as effective as an armed person IN the classroom where the action is.
quote:Originally posted by capgun
quote:Originally posted by calrugerfan
Well put Dennis. I would hate to live in capgun's world where the entire class wants to overpower weak, helpless women. Having a cop on campus does just slightly more than calling 911. If the shooter is in a classroom and the ONE law enforcement on the other side of campus. Also, think of how much it would cost to have an officer dedicated to every single school. And making schools like a TSA screening at the airport won't stop anything.
Why do you assume that teachers are unqualified to use a gun or handle stressful situations? You are correct that they are not law enforcement officers. They are child specialists. They handle large groups of children better than most cops could ever hope to.
And look at all of the major mass school shootings in the past. None of them were crimes of opportunity. They were planned out. A kid isn't going to just realize that a teacher has a gun and take it and start shooting people. They want lots of ammo and targets. If a guy tried to jump a teacher to grab a gun, there would be others jumping on that kid. You underestimate teachers and you underestimate some of the youth.
Most all these school shooting were done by school kids, but you do not think a kid would take a teachers gun to harm someone? Who knows how many bullied, distraught kids did not kill other kids because they did not have access to a firearm at home to bring to school. Kids are impulsive. School shootings have been planned, because kids did not have access to guns at school. Fights and arguments at school are an everyday occurrence. In a fit of anger a kid could grab an unprepared teachers gun and shoot his aggressor. "If a guy tried to jump a teacher to grab a gun, there would be others jumping on that kid. You underestimate teachers and you underestimate some of the youth." Come now. Have you seen school fights? No other kids intervene, they watch and find it entertaining. Including attacks on teachers. Underestimate teachers? Hardly, I have seen teachers in action in circumstances they are not prepared to handle. Like I said there are some exceptional teachers, who because of their background are trained and experienced in handling emergency situations, who I would trust with a firearm at school. But they are very few.
The point that should be taken here is this...
While the shooters WERE students... The action was PLANNED.
Not sporadic or an action of 'opportunity'.
A PLANNED action did NOT involve a commandeered weapon from an armed individual on campus.
But rather, weapons and ammo, brought onto campus during a planned action.
The ONLY defense to a planned action is a planned defense...
Which includes the means of immediate reaction. NOT a 911 call...
I vote for concealment armed, trained, teachers... PERIOD.
You can add armed, trained, admin staff and police officers.
But, put the guns where they're MOST EFFECTIVE... IN THE CLASSROOM.
Capgun - I highly doubt that the school shooters would just "snap" and kill one person out of anger. They build up slowly and plan to kill lots of people methodically. You make the assumption that they have problems getting guns which is untrue. It has been proven over and over that the stricter the gun laws, the more crime.
And as for underestimating kids, there is a big difference between watching two hot heads fight until one is knocked out and a kid trying to jump a teacher to get a gun. But for the sake of argument, let's just say that a student DID jump a teacher and get a gun. Most concealable handguns hold less than 15 rounds. At an average of 30% hit ratio, you are looking at less than 5 victims. The likelihood of that happening though is slim. The likelihood of an armed teacher being able to a shooter is a lot higher possibility.
It must be a sad world you live in where kids are horrible and teachers can't be trusted.
You must hate it when homeowners are able to defend their houses before cops arrive.
Decades ago, schools in Israel were targets for terrorists. They invaded schools and kids got killed.
The Israelis began arming teachers big time. The problem has gone away.
quote:Originally posted by calrugerfan
Capgun - I highly doubt that the school shooters would just "snap" and kill one person out of anger. They build up slowly and plan to kill lots of people methodically. You make the assumption that they have problems getting guns which is untrue. It has been proven over and over that the stricter the gun laws, the more crime.
And as for underestimating kids, there is a big difference between watching two hot heads fight until one is knocked out and a kid trying to jump a teacher to get a gun. But for the sake of argument, let's just say that a student DID jump a teacher and get a gun. Most concealable handguns hold less than 15 rounds. At an average of 30% hit ratio, you are looking at less than 5 victims. The likelihood of that happening though is slim. The likelihood of an armed teacher being able to a shooter is a lot higher possibility.
It must be a sad world you live in where kids are horrible and teachers can't be trusted.
You must hate it when homeowners are able to defend their houses before cops arrive.
We are not going to agree on this one. But your argument really loses traction when you say "It must be a sad world you live in where kids are horrible and teachers can't be trusted. You must hate it when homeowners are able to defend their houses before cops arrive." It is kids who have done most of the shootings at schools. And teachers can be trusted. Trusted to do what they are trained to do. Teach. And comparing defending your home with minimally trained teachers walking around schools with guns all day is ridiculous.
Why is an armed teacher any different than an armed homeowner? And you are correct that is has been kids that do the shootings. Who works with kids more; cops or teachers?
quote:Originally posted by allen griggs
Decades ago, schools in Israel were targets for terrorists. They invaded schools and kids got killed.
The Israelis began arming teachers big time. The problem has gone away.
Hell, yes American teachers should be armed.
BINGO
quote:Originally posted by allen griggs
Decades ago, schools in Israel were targets for terrorists. They invaded schools and kids got killed.
The Israelis began arming teachers big time. The problem has gone away.
Hell, yes American teachers should be armed.
From Israel Today. "There is a picture going around the Internet that I have seen about a dozen times today that claims that Israeli teachers are packing heat. Well, are they? The answer is "NO." Israeli teachers are not walking around like it's the Wild Wild West, strapped with a six shooter. The people armed in the schools are trained security personnel. No, our teachers are not focused on shooting, but educating. That doesn't mean, however, that we don't protect young students.
In the picture, the students are on an outing. While it appears that the teacher is holding a rifle, I have never seen such a thing. Rest assured however, they are under armed protection. In most cases it is an armed guard or a soldier that will accompany a class, not the teacher. And my guess is that the woman with the gun is a security guard, not a teacher.
Secondly, they are not armed in the classroom. I have never seen a school in Israel that was not fenced in. You must go through a locked gate that is guarded by an armed shomer, a security guard. He or she, on the other hand, is not concerned with educating, but protecting. He or she will ask you why you are there? "What is your child's name?" "Show me your I.D. card." And he or she would not let you bring a weapon inside."
quote:Originally posted by calrugerfan
Wulfmann - multiple cops is effective but how many states/jurisdictions can afford to hire multiple cops for each school? And while cops are a deterrent, in an actual active shooter situation, they would not be as effective as an armed person IN the classroom where the action is.
Real world results disagree with your opinion.
Schools are locked here.
Like at Sandy Hook you must go through a security check point.
Unlike sandy Hook there is an armed LEO on the other side who would have stopped the psycho before he killed one student.
Your idea somehow an armed psycho will slip past the armed guard and metal detector and sneak into a classroom so armed police do not work is a bit hard to fathom from a practical point.
Bottom line is gun free zones are mass killing opportunities, armed defense against killers works and the stats prove it.
The biggest deterrent is the fact these killers are looking for known defenseless groups and when they believe there will be a strong defense they do not chance it.
Notice you never hear about Christian Schools being hit.
They are not shy about saying they are armed and will use force to protect their children.
Sadly in New England states they seem to prefer to allow their precious children to be slaughtered for political advantage.
That may not be intentional but it is the result
You may notice I have not mentioned teachers being armed.
IMO that would only make sense if those teachers were extensively trained and certified to levels far exceeding the average LE training as their purpose would be multiple friendlies and few hostiles.
New York City Police need not apply
Wulfmann
"Fools learn from their own mistakes. I learn from the mistakes of others"
Otto von Bismarck
"A collective effort among police, private guards and teachers requires that the civilians involved in armed security receive rigorous training. Private guards undergo at least three weeks of advanced training with a 9mm weapon.
"A long course, at a minimum of 40-60 hours, is needed so that the instructor can feel out the student," said Shemtov, noting that not all teachers or guards are suited for school protection. "Course candidates should be a certain age, emotionally mature, of a certain mentality, physically healthy - and from there move to training."-- Read the article you posted. This is exactly what I have been saying. I agree with the Israelis. Those teachers who are highly trained and physically capable have a place in the armed security of a school. Not just anyones wife who works in a school and owns a gun. And if you do more research, you will see that the armed "teachers" in Israel are not classroom teachers. They are multi-functional school employees whose main function is in a security detail.
The bottom line is the perception an attacker will be met with deadly force.
That alone would have stopped most of the mass school shootings.
The fact some schools insanely believe declaring no guns allowed somehow makes children safer is the definition of blatant incompetent stupidity of a negligent nature.
The belief there will be no resistance is a prime motivation for these headline seeking mass murderers.
The fact the media all but advertizes by how they report current such events that you too who feel like a nobody can become a household name of infamy by creating your own headline grabbing rampage with the slaughter of innocent people and the more innocent the greater the fame so go for the precious lives of the youngest and your name will live on forever.
The entire thing feeds on itself.
One thing these whack jobs note is when one is met with resistance and fails no one hears much if anything so those who plan such an attack look for where they can have total control of the violence.
An unarmed set of victims is imperative to these nut jobs
While politicians make sure the parents of the Sandy Hook tragedy focus on your AR15 and the NRA they do so to divert the reality it was their gun free zone mentality that was first and foremost the reason those precious children were killed along with the brave but defenseless teachers.
So, are any of the states objectively studying this or are they making stupid excuses to advance political agendas?
Parents should look hard at how their schools protect their kids
If "Gun Free Zones" work why don't they just declare one around the president and keep his people unarmed like these schools?
The fact is the president does declare a gun free zone around him but insist on being heavily defended.
And so it should be for our schools
Wulfmann
"Fools learn from their own mistakes. I learn from the mistakes of others"
Otto von Bismarck
I agree, Texas also has armed LEOS in schools...and I see no reason that law abiding teachers rights as an American and citizen of Texas should stop at the school house door.
IF competent teachers, staff, students (college) had been armed during the past school shootings, the outcomes may have been very different, this is not to say people would not have died, but I believe fewer would have died and the number of shootings would have been far less.
The Liberal crazy mindset and sinage of "Gun Free Zone" is an open invitation and safe haven to those who want to do harm and to kill, afterall, they are cowards and want helpless victims...not those who may fight back.
Its time the Liberals open their eyes to cold hard facts, terminally stupid is usually fatal, and I must admit that the Libs seem to be the most afflicted with this desease.
Im honestly convinced & truly believe Liberal think is a chemical imbalance or physiological condition of the brain...[;)]
Wulfmann - your schools sound like a prison or an airport. Most of the schools in California would be impossible to close in without building a prison wall. I know that schools in the east have single entry points for indoor classes. In California, students walk outside to go to their classes. The method you are suggesting would not be feasible nor would it prevent much here in this area.
My wife's school is actually unique in being an indoor school. The reason for that is because they were a charter school and are located in an office building.
I am not in agreement a teachers rights should be the same in school as out. I believe any teacher that wants to be armed in schools be trained to the highest level as there right at home is not the same as a mass of innocents that very few shooters are equipped to deal with.
I am for teachers receiving that training but prefer the first step be armed well armed and trained police.
The media culture promotes fame by mass murder and that fact and it is a fact, demands we consider reasonable counter measures.
I know some think that is not as important than teaching "Sally has two moms" or Jimmy has two dads" or how to get an abortion at 14 without your parents interfering and other similar essential (to some) teaching requirements but preventing mass killings should at least have parity with those all important liberal programs
Wulfmann
"Fools learn from their own mistakes. I learn from the mistakes of others"
Otto von Bismarck
Wulfmann - the school I went to was surrounded by a chain link fence. The school was also on about 10 acres. How is a chain link fence going to stop kids from getting weapons in though?
After Sandy Hook everyone was frightened and all the armed teacher talk escalated. Police patrolled the schools hourly. Like everything, time changed that and people calmed down. Now the talk is against armed teachers. People are saying "what kind of a message are we sending?" Everyone with guns in schools. We want children to feel safe in school, which 99+% of the time they are. We do not want to teach them that school is a dangerous place to be fearful, where you need a gun to survive. That is not appropriate for learning. We want children taught safety and security, but we don't want to teach them from childhood that people are everywhere trying to kill them. Childhood should be more pleasant than that. These tragic events are really very, very rare. Safety, security, but not paranoia.
Nothing is full proof. A kid will find a way if he is determined and so will a crack pot.
That does not mean we don't take reasonable precautions and ones that reduce mass events.
The common thread with these psychos is the need for complete lack of resistance to accomplish a mass shooting/knifing/explosive casualty event. Almost every one of these takes place in a "Gun Free Zone" and the impression a school is a well defended place eliminates the majority of attacks.
Sandy Hook would have never occurred if it had not been a "Gun Free Zone" and instead had armed guards even just a sign saying so and one visible guard and every one of those children and teachers would be alive. There is not a tiny bit of doubt in my mind about that. It was the "Gun Free Zone" that caused the circumstances for that tragedy.
I agree ideally kids should grow up in a happy safe environment but one also has to teach them about child molesters and kidnappers for their safety and you can't ignore the reality there is evil in the world and give them a false sense of security or they are a victim just waiting to happen
Wulfmann
"Fools learn from their own mistakes. I learn from the mistakes of others"
Otto von Bismarck
If you can't trust a teacher with a gun, you can't trust them with your kid.
Some will die in hot pursuit
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
quote:Originally posted by retroxler58
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
If you can't trust a teacher with a gun, you can't trust them with your kid.
AMEN...
What in the world makes you think that a teacher is proficient in weapon retention when physically interacting with students and proficient in the handling of firearms in emergency situations when interacting with responding police that they have no communication with? With extensive and continued training and the proper equipment some teachers may be capable of being safely armed in schools. But not just any teacher. Teachers are trained to teach. If you want to train them to also be first responders in shooting situations that is fine, but train, qualify, and certify them.
quote:Originally posted by capgun
quote:Originally posted by retroxler58
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
If you can't trust a teacher with a gun, you can't trust them with your kid.
AMEN...
What in the world makes you think that a teacher is proficient in weapon retention when physically interacting with students and proficient in the handling of firearms in emergency situations when interacting with responding police that they have no communication with? With extensive and continued training and the proper equipment some teachers may be capable of being safely armed in schools. But not just any teacher. Teachers are trained to teach. If you want to train them to also be first responders in shooting situations that is fine, but train, qualify, and certify them.
So you don't trust people who carry concealed?
I would wager that many officers are easier to disarm than a teacher who is carrying concealed, especially if the student doesn't know where or if they are carrying.
In my county, every school has at least one Deputy furnished by the Sheriff's office. A few are recently retired officers that are rehired for this purpose. Others are regular full time Deputies.
Teachers that wish to be armed should be allowed to qualify on the range each year like regular officers. I don't see why this is not possible every where. It doesn't cost that much. Local governments just have to care more about kids in school, than their nice offices and carpet on the floor, and stained glass windows, etc. Unfortunately, most local government is liberal controlled, and they only talk about it.
quote:Originally posted by capgun
quote:Originally posted by retroxler58
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
If you can't trust a teacher with a gun, you can't trust them with your kid.
AMEN...
What in the world makes you think that a teacher is proficient in weapon retention when physically interacting with students and proficient in the handling of firearms in emergency situations when interacting with responding police that they have no communication with? With extensive and continued training and the proper equipment some teachers may be capable of being safely armed in schools. But not just any teacher. Teachers are trained to teach. If you want to train them to also be first responders in shooting situations that is fine, but train, qualify, and certify them.
like we should require of all citizens right? And it should be the feds who decides to have guns or not. And it's the feds who should determine which guns we can have. Am I following you properly?
Some will die in hot pursuit
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by capgun
quote:Originally posted by retroxler58
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
If you can't trust a teacher with a gun, you can't trust them with your kid.
AMEN...
What in the world makes you think that a teacher is proficient in weapon retention when physically interacting with students and proficient in the handling of firearms in emergency situations when interacting with responding police that they have no communication with? With extensive and continued training and the proper equipment some teachers may be capable of being safely armed in schools. But not just any teacher. Teachers are trained to teach. If you want to train them to also be first responders in shooting situations that is fine, but train, qualify, and certify them.
like we should require of all citizens right? And it should be the feds who decides to have guns or not. And it's the feds who should determine which guns we can have. Am I following you properly?
Comments
I'm a teacher; music and bands grades 1-12.
At least once per year we have a lockdown drill where were all cover and cower. I don't like it. I doubt that the piece of paper we hang over the window in the door is going to stop any bullets. Same goes for the "Weapons Free Zone" stickers at the entrances. For me, or ANY other civilian, to walk in the door carrying could/would result in jail time should it be discovered. I don't like it, but it's probably better that way. I figure I have a much better chance of wining the lottery than of ever encountering an active shooter at school.
This has been an interesting thread to follow.
I'm a teacher; music and bands grades 1-12.
At least once per year we have a lockdown drill where were all cover and cower. I don't like it. I doubt that the piece of paper we hang over the window in the door is going to stop any bullets. Same goes for the "Weapons Free Zone" stickers at the entrances. For me, or ANY other civilian, to walk in the door carrying could/would result in jail time should it be discovered. I don't like it, but it's probably better that way. I figure I have a much better chance of wining the lottery than of ever encountering an active shooter at school.
It you did happen to pick the winning numbers, it would be nice if you bought a ticket though, right? Same thing for an active shooter. Remember, it only needs to happen once to ruin your life.
Why do you assume that teachers are unqualified to use a gun or handle stressful situations? You are correct that they are not law enforcement officers. They are child specialists. They handle large groups of children better than most cops could ever hope to.
And look at all of the major mass school shootings in the past. None of them were crimes of opportunity. They were planned out. A kid isn't going to just realize that a teacher has a gun and take it and start shooting people. They want lots of ammo and targets. If a guy tried to jump a teacher to grab a gun, there would be others jumping on that kid. You underestimate teachers and you underestimate some of the youth.
Well put Dennis. I would hate to live in capgun's world where the entire class wants to overpower weak, helpless women. Having a cop on campus does just slightly more than calling 911. If the shooter is in a classroom and the ONE law enforcement on the other side of campus. Also, think of how much it would cost to have an officer dedicated to every single school. And making schools like a TSA screening at the airport won't stop anything.
Why do you assume that teachers are unqualified to use a gun or handle stressful situations? You are correct that they are not law enforcement officers. They are child specialists. They handle large groups of children better than most cops could ever hope to.
And look at all of the major mass school shootings in the past. None of them were crimes of opportunity. They were planned out. A kid isn't going to just realize that a teacher has a gun and take it and start shooting people. They want lots of ammo and targets. If a guy tried to jump a teacher to grab a gun, there would be others jumping on that kid. You underestimate teachers and you underestimate some of the youth.
Most all these school shooting were done by school kids, but you do not think a kid would take a teachers gun to harm someone? Who knows how many bullied, distraught kids did not kill other kids because they did not have access to a firearm at home to bring to school. Kids are impulsive. School shootings have been planned, because kids did not have access to guns at school. Fights and arguments at school are an everyday occurrence. In a fit of anger a kid could grab an unprepared teachers gun and shoot his aggressor. "If a guy tried to jump a teacher to grab a gun, there would be others jumping on that kid. You underestimate teachers and you underestimate some of the youth." Come now. Have you seen school fights? No other kids intervene, they watch and find it entertaining. Including attacks on teachers. Underestimate teachers? Hardly, I have seen teachers in action in circumstances they are not prepared to handle. Like I said there are some exceptional teachers, who because of their background are trained and experienced in handling emergency situations, who I would trust with a firearm at school. But they are very few.
If the shooter is in a classroom and the ONE law enforcement on the other side of campus. Also, think of how much it would cost to have an officer dedicated to every single school. And making schools like a TSA screening at the airport won't stop anything.
As stated; Florida schools have cops (plural) Connecticut schools "have please don't kill us unarmed people" signs
Need I compare results?
What you aren't getting is the simple fact when there is a known certain unarmed area where a mass murder can be assured and immortality gained by a psychopathic moron and a willing to glorify media the killer believes or perceives he can accomplish his goal.
If it is "known" there are trained well armed police on campus he perceives the ability to accomplish the crime is hindered if not made impossible and he will again be seen as the failure he perceives himself to be.
He requires a sure result and armed police make that unlikely.
At Sandy Hook he came to the entrance and shot his way in because there was no armed defense.
At a Florida school he would be met with defensive fire and while nothing is certain as to outcome that uncertainty is what upsets his plans to accomplish his goal and therefore prevents his attempt.
Now, notice the gun free zone mass murders in schools in such states and the lack of mass murders in Florida schools.
Got math?
Nothing is certain but chance favors the prepared man (Ansel Adams)
Wulfmann
"Fools learn from their own mistakes. I learn from the mistakes of others"
Otto von Bismarck
quote:Originally posted by calrugerfan
Well put Dennis. I would hate to live in capgun's world where the entire class wants to overpower weak, helpless women. Having a cop on campus does just slightly more than calling 911. If the shooter is in a classroom and the ONE law enforcement on the other side of campus. Also, think of how much it would cost to have an officer dedicated to every single school. And making schools like a TSA screening at the airport won't stop anything.
Why do you assume that teachers are unqualified to use a gun or handle stressful situations? You are correct that they are not law enforcement officers. They are child specialists. They handle large groups of children better than most cops could ever hope to.
And look at all of the major mass school shootings in the past. None of them were crimes of opportunity. They were planned out. A kid isn't going to just realize that a teacher has a gun and take it and start shooting people. They want lots of ammo and targets. If a guy tried to jump a teacher to grab a gun, there would be others jumping on that kid. You underestimate teachers and you underestimate some of the youth.
Most all these school shooting were done by school kids, but you do not think a kid would take a teachers gun to harm someone? Who knows how many bullied, distraught kids did not kill other kids because they did not have access to a firearm at home to bring to school. Kids are impulsive. School shootings have been planned, because kids did not have access to guns at school. Fights and arguments at school are an everyday occurrence. In a fit of anger a kid could grab an unprepared teachers gun and shoot his aggressor. "If a guy tried to jump a teacher to grab a gun, there would be others jumping on that kid. You underestimate teachers and you underestimate some of the youth." Come now. Have you seen school fights? No other kids intervene, they watch and find it entertaining. Including attacks on teachers. Underestimate teachers? Hardly, I have seen teachers in action in circumstances they are not prepared to handle. Like I said there are some exceptional teachers, who because of their background are trained and experienced in handling emergency situations, who I would trust with a firearm at school. But they are very few.
The point that should be taken here is this...
While the shooters WERE students... The action was PLANNED.
Not sporadic or an action of 'opportunity'.
A PLANNED action did NOT involve a commandeered weapon from an armed individual on campus.
But rather, weapons and ammo, brought onto campus during a planned action.
The ONLY defense to a planned action is a planned defense...
Which includes the means of immediate reaction. NOT a 911 call...
I vote for concealment armed, trained, teachers... PERIOD.
You can add armed, trained, admin staff and police officers.
But, put the guns where they're MOST EFFECTIVE... IN THE CLASSROOM.
And as for underestimating kids, there is a big difference between watching two hot heads fight until one is knocked out and a kid trying to jump a teacher to get a gun. But for the sake of argument, let's just say that a student DID jump a teacher and get a gun. Most concealable handguns hold less than 15 rounds. At an average of 30% hit ratio, you are looking at less than 5 victims. The likelihood of that happening though is slim. The likelihood of an armed teacher being able to a shooter is a lot higher possibility.
It must be a sad world you live in where kids are horrible and teachers can't be trusted.
You must hate it when homeowners are able to defend their houses before cops arrive.
The Israelis began arming teachers big time. The problem has gone away.
Hell, yes American teachers should be armed.
Capgun - I highly doubt that the school shooters would just "snap" and kill one person out of anger. They build up slowly and plan to kill lots of people methodically. You make the assumption that they have problems getting guns which is untrue. It has been proven over and over that the stricter the gun laws, the more crime.
And as for underestimating kids, there is a big difference between watching two hot heads fight until one is knocked out and a kid trying to jump a teacher to get a gun. But for the sake of argument, let's just say that a student DID jump a teacher and get a gun. Most concealable handguns hold less than 15 rounds. At an average of 30% hit ratio, you are looking at less than 5 victims. The likelihood of that happening though is slim. The likelihood of an armed teacher being able to a shooter is a lot higher possibility.
It must be a sad world you live in where kids are horrible and teachers can't be trusted.
You must hate it when homeowners are able to defend their houses before cops arrive.
We are not going to agree on this one. But your argument really loses traction when you say "It must be a sad world you live in where kids are horrible and teachers can't be trusted. You must hate it when homeowners are able to defend their houses before cops arrive." It is kids who have done most of the shootings at schools. And teachers can be trusted. Trusted to do what they are trained to do. Teach. And comparing defending your home with minimally trained teachers walking around schools with guns all day is ridiculous.
Decades ago, schools in Israel were targets for terrorists. They invaded schools and kids got killed.
The Israelis began arming teachers big time. The problem has gone away.
Hell, yes American teachers should be armed.
BINGO
Decades ago, schools in Israel were targets for terrorists. They invaded schools and kids got killed.
The Israelis began arming teachers big time. The problem has gone away.
Hell, yes American teachers should be armed.
From Israel Today. "There is a picture going around the Internet that I have seen about a dozen times today that claims that Israeli teachers are packing heat. Well, are they? The answer is "NO." Israeli teachers are not walking around like it's the Wild Wild West, strapped with a six shooter. The people armed in the schools are trained security personnel. No, our teachers are not focused on shooting, but educating. That doesn't mean, however, that we don't protect young students.
In the picture, the students are on an outing. While it appears that the teacher is holding a rifle, I have never seen such a thing. Rest assured however, they are under armed protection. In most cases it is an armed guard or a soldier that will accompany a class, not the teacher. And my guess is that the woman with the gun is a security guard, not a teacher.
Secondly, they are not armed in the classroom. I have never seen a school in Israel that was not fenced in. You must go through a locked gate that is guarded by an armed shomer, a security guard. He or she, on the other hand, is not concerned with educating, but protecting. He or she will ask you why you are there? "What is your child's name?" "Show me your I.D. card." And he or she would not let you bring a weapon inside."
Wulfmann - multiple cops is effective but how many states/jurisdictions can afford to hire multiple cops for each school? And while cops are a deterrent, in an actual active shooter situation, they would not be as effective as an armed person IN the classroom where the action is.
Real world results disagree with your opinion.
Schools are locked here.
Like at Sandy Hook you must go through a security check point.
Unlike sandy Hook there is an armed LEO on the other side who would have stopped the psycho before he killed one student.
Your idea somehow an armed psycho will slip past the armed guard and metal detector and sneak into a classroom so armed police do not work is a bit hard to fathom from a practical point.
Bottom line is gun free zones are mass killing opportunities, armed defense against killers works and the stats prove it.
The biggest deterrent is the fact these killers are looking for known defenseless groups and when they believe there will be a strong defense they do not chance it.
Notice you never hear about Christian Schools being hit.
They are not shy about saying they are armed and will use force to protect their children.
Sadly in New England states they seem to prefer to allow their precious children to be slaughtered for political advantage.
That may not be intentional but it is the result
You may notice I have not mentioned teachers being armed.
IMO that would only make sense if those teachers were extensively trained and certified to levels far exceeding the average LE training as their purpose would be multiple friendlies and few hostiles.
New York City Police need not apply
Wulfmann
"Fools learn from their own mistakes. I learn from the mistakes of others"
Otto von Bismarck
"A long course, at a minimum of 40-60 hours, is needed so that the instructor can feel out the student," said Shemtov, noting that not all teachers or guards are suited for school protection. "Course candidates should be a certain age, emotionally mature, of a certain mentality, physically healthy - and from there move to training."-- Read the article you posted. This is exactly what I have been saying. I agree with the Israelis. Those teachers who are highly trained and physically capable have a place in the armed security of a school. Not just anyones wife who works in a school and owns a gun. And if you do more research, you will see that the armed "teachers" in Israel are not classroom teachers. They are multi-functional school employees whose main function is in a security detail.
That alone would have stopped most of the mass school shootings.
The fact some schools insanely believe declaring no guns allowed somehow makes children safer is the definition of blatant incompetent stupidity of a negligent nature.
The belief there will be no resistance is a prime motivation for these headline seeking mass murderers.
The fact the media all but advertizes by how they report current such events that you too who feel like a nobody can become a household name of infamy by creating your own headline grabbing rampage with the slaughter of innocent people and the more innocent the greater the fame so go for the precious lives of the youngest and your name will live on forever.
The entire thing feeds on itself.
One thing these whack jobs note is when one is met with resistance and fails no one hears much if anything so those who plan such an attack look for where they can have total control of the violence.
An unarmed set of victims is imperative to these nut jobs
While politicians make sure the parents of the Sandy Hook tragedy focus on your AR15 and the NRA they do so to divert the reality it was their gun free zone mentality that was first and foremost the reason those precious children were killed along with the brave but defenseless teachers.
So, are any of the states objectively studying this or are they making stupid excuses to advance political agendas?
Parents should look hard at how their schools protect their kids
If "Gun Free Zones" work why don't they just declare one around the president and keep his people unarmed like these schools?
The fact is the president does declare a gun free zone around him but insist on being heavily defended.
And so it should be for our schools
Wulfmann
"Fools learn from their own mistakes. I learn from the mistakes of others"
Otto von Bismarck
I agree, Texas also has armed LEOS in schools...and I see no reason that law abiding teachers rights as an American and citizen of Texas should stop at the school house door.
IF competent teachers, staff, students (college) had been armed during the past school shootings, the outcomes may have been very different, this is not to say people would not have died, but I believe fewer would have died and the number of shootings would have been far less.
The Liberal crazy mindset and sinage of "Gun Free Zone" is an open invitation and safe haven to those who want to do harm and to kill, afterall, they are cowards and want helpless victims...not those who may fight back.
Its time the Liberals open their eyes to cold hard facts, terminally stupid is usually fatal, and I must admit that the Libs seem to be the most afflicted with this desease.
Im honestly convinced & truly believe Liberal think is a chemical imbalance or physiological condition of the brain...[;)]
My wife's school is actually unique in being an indoor school. The reason for that is because they were a charter school and are located in an office building.
You must as a guest enter at a single point.
I am not in agreement a teachers rights should be the same in school as out. I believe any teacher that wants to be armed in schools be trained to the highest level as there right at home is not the same as a mass of innocents that very few shooters are equipped to deal with.
I am for teachers receiving that training but prefer the first step be armed well armed and trained police.
The media culture promotes fame by mass murder and that fact and it is a fact, demands we consider reasonable counter measures.
I know some think that is not as important than teaching "Sally has two moms" or Jimmy has two dads" or how to get an abortion at 14 without your parents interfering and other similar essential (to some) teaching requirements but preventing mass killings should at least have parity with those all important liberal programs
Wulfmann
"Fools learn from their own mistakes. I learn from the mistakes of others"
Otto von Bismarck
And the world IS a dangerous place. Guns help us survive that danger.
That does not mean we don't take reasonable precautions and ones that reduce mass events.
The common thread with these psychos is the need for complete lack of resistance to accomplish a mass shooting/knifing/explosive casualty event. Almost every one of these takes place in a "Gun Free Zone" and the impression a school is a well defended place eliminates the majority of attacks.
Sandy Hook would have never occurred if it had not been a "Gun Free Zone" and instead had armed guards even just a sign saying so and one visible guard and every one of those children and teachers would be alive. There is not a tiny bit of doubt in my mind about that. It was the "Gun Free Zone" that caused the circumstances for that tragedy.
I agree ideally kids should grow up in a happy safe environment but one also has to teach them about child molesters and kidnappers for their safety and you can't ignore the reality there is evil in the world and give them a false sense of security or they are a victim just waiting to happen
Wulfmann
"Fools learn from their own mistakes. I learn from the mistakes of others"
Otto von Bismarck
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
If you can't trust a teacher with a gun, you can't trust them with your kid.
AMEN...
If you can't trust a teacher with a gun, you can't trust them with your kid.
Well put.
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
If you can't trust a teacher with a gun, you can't trust them with your kid.
AMEN...
What in the world makes you think that a teacher is proficient in weapon retention when physically interacting with students and proficient in the handling of firearms in emergency situations when interacting with responding police that they have no communication with? With extensive and continued training and the proper equipment some teachers may be capable of being safely armed in schools. But not just any teacher. Teachers are trained to teach. If you want to train them to also be first responders in shooting situations that is fine, but train, qualify, and certify them.
quote:Originally posted by retroxler58
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
If you can't trust a teacher with a gun, you can't trust them with your kid.
AMEN...
What in the world makes you think that a teacher is proficient in weapon retention when physically interacting with students and proficient in the handling of firearms in emergency situations when interacting with responding police that they have no communication with? With extensive and continued training and the proper equipment some teachers may be capable of being safely armed in schools. But not just any teacher. Teachers are trained to teach. If you want to train them to also be first responders in shooting situations that is fine, but train, qualify, and certify them.
So you don't trust people who carry concealed?
I would wager that many officers are easier to disarm than a teacher who is carrying concealed, especially if the student doesn't know where or if they are carrying.
Teachers that wish to be armed should be allowed to qualify on the range each year like regular officers. I don't see why this is not possible every where. It doesn't cost that much. Local governments just have to care more about kids in school, than their nice offices and carpet on the floor, and stained glass windows, etc. Unfortunately, most local government is liberal controlled, and they only talk about it.
quote:Originally posted by retroxler58
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
If you can't trust a teacher with a gun, you can't trust them with your kid.
AMEN...
What in the world makes you think that a teacher is proficient in weapon retention when physically interacting with students and proficient in the handling of firearms in emergency situations when interacting with responding police that they have no communication with? With extensive and continued training and the proper equipment some teachers may be capable of being safely armed in schools. But not just any teacher. Teachers are trained to teach. If you want to train them to also be first responders in shooting situations that is fine, but train, qualify, and certify them.
like we should require of all citizens right? And it should be the feds who decides to have guns or not. And it's the feds who should determine which guns we can have. Am I following you properly?
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
quote:Originally posted by capgun
quote:Originally posted by retroxler58
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
If you can't trust a teacher with a gun, you can't trust them with your kid.
AMEN...
What in the world makes you think that a teacher is proficient in weapon retention when physically interacting with students and proficient in the handling of firearms in emergency situations when interacting with responding police that they have no communication with? With extensive and continued training and the proper equipment some teachers may be capable of being safely armed in schools. But not just any teacher. Teachers are trained to teach. If you want to train them to also be first responders in shooting situations that is fine, but train, qualify, and certify them.
like we should require of all citizens right? And it should be the feds who decides to have guns or not. And it's the feds who should determine which guns we can have. Am I following you properly?
I think that is what he is saying.