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masonry question

asopasop Member Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭✭
edited March 2013 in General Discussion
Need a formula for patching roughly 18" long, 2''-3'' high by 2''-3'' deep spots in some OLD exterior concrete walls. Tried store bought stuff but it just ain't what it used to be. Looking for a make up of portland, sand, limestone and water. Thanks

Comments

  • asopasop Member Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Our remodel has gone way beyond our scheduled completion date.
    And I suspect we're going to have the contractor as part of our life for far too long.

    What's the coldest temp you can reliably lay brick?
    I'm assuming above freezing would be best. But I have no clue.
  • fishkiller41fishkiller41 Member Posts: 50,608
    edited November -1
    U may need to use a "bonding agent" in both the mud and on the wall.
  • mcasomcaso Member Posts: 1,119 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have had very good luck with all the Thorocrete products. Try the Thorocrete Patch, just follow the directions. The Water Plug will plug a running hose.
  • SGSG Member Posts: 7,548
    edited November -1
    I would do a dry pack. Mix your concrete(sandmix) with liquid latex,coat the hole to be patched with latex also. Consistancy should be that of packing a snowball,not too wet where it sags but not too dry where it wont hold together.
  • MudderChuckMudderChuck Member Posts: 4,105
    edited November -1
    I use a deep sealer, then glue (primer). Then mortar or roofing mortar with some lime mixed in, about 10%.

    Or your basic 3-5 shovels washed sand, one shovel Portland, half a shovel of Lime. The colder it gets, where you are, the more sand and lime you want to use. I usually buy pre mix roofing Mortar and add a little Lime for small patches, seal and prime before hand. Sealer dries (tacks) fast, primer (adhesive) can be worked wet.

    My stuff never falls off the wall, so I must be doing something right. You want the patch to dry slow, if the surrounding wall sucks the moisture out to fast it weakens the patch bonding. On hot days I whip a little water onto the patch with a big brush to keep it moist as long as practical.

    You want your mix to be as thin as practical, just enough stiffness to keep it on the wall. Most people make the mistake of trying to trowel it on like putty (to little water), throw it on the wall and when it stiffens a bit take the excess off. Stucco, plaster, stucco cement, should be the consistency of whipped cream and just stiff enough to hold a peak if you stick a trowel in the bucket then pull it out. It works for me.

    No real reason to use cement, Gypsum based exterior stucco will likely work just as well. And will likely hold up better to weather changes that loosen the bond between dissimilar (aged) materials. Seal, bond, stucco.
  • pietro75pietro75 Member Posts: 7,048
    edited November -1
    The pre-blend type S mortar or "spec-mix" is really strong stuff.

    If you want to spend the big bucks, get some Hydraulic-set mortar and patch with that.

    If it is a foundation wall, you can patch it with Type S pre-blend and then seal it with thoro-seal. It's not so much the patching as it is the sealing of the wall.


    Patch it with:
    http://www.sakrete.com/products/detail.cfm/*_alias/Type-S-Masonry-Mortar

    Seal it with:
    http://www.chargar.com/Products/*_ma.html

    Both available at your local blue or orange store. If you have a masonry supply, go there!
  • MudderChuckMudderChuck Member Posts: 4,105
    edited November -1
    If the wall is plastered with lime cement, you want to use lime cement to patch it. Nine sand, 2 lime, 1 cement. If your patch is too hard the wall will flake badly around the hard patch. Masonry expands and contracts with the temperature. Lime cement is relatively soft.

    Lime cement works well in very cold climates and/or on structures that move a lot. Those very old houses you sometimes see with the wood framing showing, are plastered in Lime Cement.
  • pietro75pietro75 Member Posts: 7,048
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by MudderChuck
    If the wall is plastered with lime cement, you want to use lime cement to patch it. Nine sand, 2 lime, 1 cement. If your patch is too hard the wall will flake badly around the hard patch. Masonry expands and contracts with the temperature. Lime cement is relatively soft.

    Lime cement works well in very cold climates and/or on structures that move a lot. Those very old houses you sometimes see with the wood framing showing, are plastered in Lime Cement.


    Doesn't a pre-blend Type S Mortar cement consist of sand,lime and portland cement, all blended in a controlled environment to ensure a consistent mix for the best strength possible?

    I thought lime was used in all cement. Portland,lime and sand?
  • evileye fleagalevileye fleagal Member Posts: 4,238 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    we would use a non shrink grout (itmsm)mixed kinda dry and packed it under steel coluams(sic) hard stuff it is, i would think that and a primer would work for you.jmho
  • MudderChuckMudderChuck Member Posts: 4,105
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by pietro75
    quote:Originally posted by MudderChuck
    If the wall is plastered with lime cement, you want to use lime cement to patch it. Nine sand, 2 lime, 1 cement. If your patch is too hard the wall will flake badly around the hard patch. Masonry expands and contracts with the temperature. Lime cement is relatively soft.

    Lime cement works well in very cold climates and/or on structures that move a lot. Those very old houses you sometimes see with the wood framing showing, are plastered in Lime Cement.




    Doesn't a pre-blend Type S Mortar cement consist of sand,lime and portland cement, all blended in a controlled environment to ensure a consistent mix for the best strength possible?

    I thought lime was used in all cement. Portland,lime and sand?


    I'm having a hard time picturing what he wants to patch, I envisioned mostly cosmetic.

    Your the expert, all I can do is share what has worked for me. I was thinking he has frost damage. The solution is to exclude as much moisture as possible from the problem area and patch with something that flexes and sticks well. If you patch with something harder than the surrounding material it usually doesn't last long after a few freeze cycles. I did recommend pre mix, we have different materials here, likely the same materials with different names. I recommended generic types, like roofing mortar. Roofing mortar is weather resistant and doesn't need to be painted. A little extra lime is unlikely to hurt anything and may help depending on how hard the base material is. IMO, but like I said your the expert. He did ask about mixing his own and I tired to do a quick explanation about the variables and why.

    I was writing while you posted and didn't see your post until after I posted. I wasn't trying to sharp you. Your a mason I'm a welder. But I have done a good bit of brick work, I enjoy it.
  • pietro75pietro75 Member Posts: 7,048
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by MudderChuck
    quote:Originally posted by pietro75
    quote:Originally posted by MudderChuck
    If the wall is plastered with lime cement, you want to use lime cement to patch it. Nine sand, 2 lime, 1 cement. If your patch is too hard the wall will flake badly around the hard patch. Masonry expands and contracts with the temperature. Lime cement is relatively soft.

    Lime cement works well in very cold climates and/or on structures that move a lot. Those very old houses you sometimes see with the wood framing showing, are plastered in Lime Cement.




    Doesn't a pre-blend Type S Mortar cement consist of sand,lime and portland cement, all blended in a controlled environment to ensure a consistent mix for the best strength possible?

    I thought lime was used in all cement. Portland,lime and sand?


    I'm having a hard time picturing what he wants to patch, I envisioned mostly cosmetic.

    Your the expert, all I can do is share what has worked for me. I was thinking he has frost damage. The solution is to exclude as much moisture as possible from the problem area and patch with something that flexes and sticks well. If you patch with something harder than the surrounding material it usually doesn't last long after a few freeze cycles. I did recommend pre mix, we have different materials here, likely the same materials with different names. I recommended generic types, like roofing mortar. Roofing mortar is weather resistant and doesn't need to be painted. A little extra lime is unlikely to hurt anything and may help depending on how hard the base material is. IMO, but like I said your the expert. He did ask about mixing his own and I tired to do a quick explanation about the variables and why.

    I was writing while you posted and didn't see your post until after I posted. I wasn't trying to sharp you. Your a mason I'm a welder. But I have done a good bit of brick work, I enjoy it.


    Hey, brother GB'r, we are all here to help one another, unless we have wrong motive. I see us working together to help out. No worries on my my end.
  • nards444nards444 Member Posts: 3,994 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would think you would have to go woth some sort of mortar vs concrete. or you could try a hardening agent in the concrete. Question is if your going to see it or paint over it.
  • MudderChuckMudderChuck Member Posts: 4,105
    edited November -1
    A photograph or two would likely make this a whole lot easier.[:D]
  • 320090T320090T Member Posts: 2,715 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Might you drill a few holes to help hold the patch? Just thinking.
  • M1A762M1A762 Member Posts: 3,426
    edited November -1
    You might want to consider epoxy injection with a skim of grout over the top.

    Or fill the areas with grout and caulk over the dried grout with Tremco Vulkem. This will be a very waterproof and strong repair.
  • kevind6kevind6 Member Posts: 208 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    So what caused the crack?? That'd be my first question in determining how best to fix it. Water freeze/thaw, heat expansion and contraction, damage from a collision, or foundation settling could all be culprits. The best fix can vary depending on what caused the problem. Secondly, what do you want to accomplish with the fix, is it purely aesthetics, or are you needing a waterproof solution as well.?? Finally, are you looking for a permanant fix, or one just to get you by for a while??

    Sorry, but I can't suggest a solution until I understand the problem.
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