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Carl's Jr. - A good shooting
Wyatt Earp
Member Posts: 5,871
I think this shooting was justified, but the 5 extra rounds while he was on the ground is questionbable:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/caught-on-video-calif-cops-open-fire-on-vandal-outside-carls-jr-restaurant/
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/caught-on-video-calif-cops-open-fire-on-vandal-outside-carls-jr-restaurant/
Comments
Perfect spot for a taser but I would never tell a cop he cant shoot in a spot like that. I wonder if the rules of engagement in afganhistan would allow for that shooting.
Probably not!
Always hate to see somebody die. But if you take a steel bar, hold it like a baseball bat and take a couple hops at a cop, while other cops are pointing guns at you, You are most likely dumb and then dead. The shooting was justified IMO. Could it be a case of suicide by cop? Out of his meth mind?
Look, I know the dead man was no upstanding citizen. But it is sobering any time a man dies. For someone to set in a car and laugh as a man dies just amazes me.
I am astounded that the scumbags who video taped this are laughing as a man lays dying on the pavement. Depraved.
Look, I know the dead man was no upstanding citizen. But it is sobering any time a man dies. For someone to set in a car and laugh as a man dies just amazes me.
Pretty pathetic, I agree.
Some young punks in CA raised on movies and video games.
I would have turned the dog on him.
And possibly waste a perfectly good dog to an ice pic?
If we did that, it would be called murder.
quote:Originally posted by sohigh1
I am astounded that the scumbags who video taped this are laughing as a man lays dying on the pavement. Depraved.
Look, I know the dead man was no upstanding citizen. But it is sobering any time a man dies. For someone to set in a car and laugh as a man dies just amazes me.
Pretty pathetic, I agree.
Some young punks in CA raised on movies and video games.
Ditto.
Perfect spot for a taser but I would never tell a cop he cant shoot in a spot like that. I wonder if the rules of engagement in afganhistan would allow for that shooting.
The taser was used if you were not paying attention. The ofcr on the left shot him in the face with it due to the heavy clothing the guy was wearing. The taser did not slow the guy down.
Seems like way overkill to me. I think I counted nine "ACTUALLY TEN" shots expended. This situation could have probably been difused some other way, WHAT OTHER WAY?. The cops will probably show it as death by lead poisoning!! I don't have much respect for the fuzz anymore! Just saying![:(][xx(][V]
Learn to count, fixed it for you.
I think this shooting was justified, but the 5 extra rounds while he was on the ground is questionbable:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/caught-on-video-calif-cops-open-fire-on-vandal-outside-carls-jr-restaurant/
Wrong, the second 5 shots were delivered when the guy was still on his feet. Watch it again. The first volley made him retreat behind the car but you can still see his head over the top of the car when the second group of shots were fired. That means he was still standing.
It amazes me how people who have the ability to look at this video over and over still get it wrong. Imagine how hard it is for witnesses to something like this to get it right after only seeing it once.
These are the type of encounters that make people detest all cops![:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!]
quote:Originally posted by Wyatt Earp
I think this shooting was justified, but the 5 extra rounds while he was on the ground is questionbable:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/caught-on-video-calif-cops-open-fire-on-vandal-outside-carls-jr-restaurant/
Wrong, the second 5 shots were delivered when the guy was still on his feet. Watch it again. The first volley made him retreat behind the car but you can still see his head over the top of the car when the second group of shots were fired. That means he was still standing.
It amazes me how people who have the ability to look at this video over and over still get it wrong. Imagine how hard it is for witnesses to something like this to get it right after only seeing it once.
It looked like pepper spray and not a tazzer to me.
Only a dim witted fellow cop could find justification in this MURDER!!!!!!!! The guy had a metal pipe. The cowardly cops have metal pipes......they are called BATONS!!!! There was 2 cops against one man with apparent mental problems.
You dont use metal pipes against metal pipes. You clearly dont know anything about the escalation of force taught in police academys. The way to win in an altercation like this is to use a level of force that exceeds that of you adversary. The ofcr tried the taser, that didn't work. Batons, by the way many of which are "wood" "not metal", weigh a fraction of what that metal bar weighs, are no good in this case.
Apparent mental problems? How do you know. He may have been doped up on drugs or just plain pissed off at something. That does not matter anyway. Cops are injured and killed all the time by people with "mental porblems"
Police dogs are trained to take people armed in such a manner to the ground quickly. In times before the Taser became so common, that probably would have been the first move.
The dog should've got the guy down before he got to within arms reach of any police officer, no? I think police in general are becoming WAY too reliant on this kind of technology. If you can believe the bay area cop who shot Oscar Grant it was mistaking his Taser for his side arm that got him killed as well. even though Oscar was cuffed and face down...
And the Taser was blamed for killing Kelly Thomas too, which is probably B.S., but damn. doesn't it seem like the Taser is becoming a distraction when it comes to arrest tactics...
It was a TAZER to the face, not pepper spray. If you look close you can see the wires hanging from his face leading back to the officer's hand, and you can watch the guy pull the wires off of his face.
It was an axe, not a pipe the suspect was holding. You can see that at the 39sec mark.
The suspect turns towards the officer and raises that axe a second before the second officer begins shooting the suspect.
The suspect was still standing as the second volley of shots began, and was falling as the volley ended.
Hindsight is 20/20, and monday morning quarterbacking is always easy....Things could have gone different and better. Once the officers got that close to him, and he made an overtly threatening motion towards the officer all other options went out the window.
Where are all of the "gene pool is clensed guys" ? Maybe Im on the wrong forum.
quote:Originally posted by Laredo Lefty
quote:Originally posted by Wyatt Earp
I think this shooting was justified, but the 5 extra rounds while he was on the ground is questionbable:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/caught-on-video-calif-cops-open-fire-on-vandal-outside-carls-jr-restaurant/
Wrong, the second 5 shots were delivered when the guy was still on his feet. Watch it again. The first volley made him retreat behind the car but you can still see his head over the top of the car when the second group of shots were fired. That means he was still standing.
It amazes me how people who have the ability to look at this video over and over still get it wrong. Imagine how hard it is for witnesses to something like this to get it right after only seeing it once.
It looked like pepper spray and not a tazzer to me.
Kinda hard to swing an ice pick when you can't see a big ol' Police dog.
This is Standard responce for the LAPD.
I'd have to agree that it was too much force. Looks like that kid could have been taken down by one or two cops. Still gonna be justified though, he went to hit a cop with a pipe.
Where are all of the "gene pool is clensed guys" ? Maybe Im on the wrong forum.
Look closer, at 39seconds, it's an axe not a pipe
quote:Originally posted by Laredo Lefty
quote:Originally posted by partisan
Only a dim witted fellow cop could find justification in this MURDER!!!!!!!! The guy had a metal pipe. The cowardly cops have metal pipes......they are called BATONS!!!! There was 2 cops against one man with apparent mental problems.
You dont use metal pipes against metal pipes. You clearly dont know anything about the escalation of force taught in police academys. The way to win in an altercation like this is to use a level of force that exceeds that of you adversary. The ofcr tried the taser, that didn't work. Batons, by the way many of which are "wood" "not metal", weigh a fraction of what that metal bar weighs, are no good in this case.
Apparent mental problems? How do you know. He may have been doped up on drugs or just plain pissed off at something. That does not matter anyway. Cops are injured and killed all the time by people with "mental porblems"
I don't know how long ago you were in LE, but the colaspable batons in use today are metal! As far back as the early 80's there was the PR-24, which was USUALLY metal. There are too many cops in this Country that are afraid to mix it up. If you are a "girl" cop I guess you have no other choice, but a man can stop a lot of trouble without ever touching his firearm!
While working in LE I worked extra jobs on the side. For 3 years I worked in some of the roughest beach bars in the area. One bar was the favorite hangout of the off duty oil rig workers in the Gulf. Through the years more than one of them told me they came to this bar to "fight and f***."
In all these weekends working there I had to use my PR-24 ONE time! I never even thought of firearm on my side and ankle. The first minute I stepped into this bar I walked right into a fist fight between 2 drunk oil rig guys. I guess I could have used the PR-24, or maybe my pistol on them, but instaed I broke it up with my fist. They had fist, I had fist, so there was NO reason to go any further into the "bag-O-weapons" scenario.
Now as a citizen I am only allowed to use deadly force to protect me or someone elses life. If I shoot a slight built man holding a pipe that is never raised above his head I doubt it would be ruled "justifiable", especially if I shot him 10 times!!!!!!!
The deviants who shot the video were seriously warped as well. Laughing as someone lays dying. This is what the breakdown of society looks like at the onset.
At least one of the officers attempted to taze the perp, to little or no detriment.
The perp cocked the weapon over his shoulder, spun about and charged the LEO.
(That LEO had left himself open, he was distracted messing about at his belt.)
If the dog had been released the dog would have been killed or seriously injured.
I'd be more concerned about the welfare of the dog, than the perp in these film clips of this particular situation.
Keep shooting until the threat is eliminated.
I watched the films several times.
Justified shooting and all shots justified ... period. [^]
Poor tactics didnt help with this situation. I have put myself in similar situations, thinking I could handle it a certain way because I did before, well it didnt work out this time. They were to close to an armed subject. They figure presence would work,(my opinion on this), and the guy would be able to be arrested. I feel for the Folks involved in this shooting, I have been involved in a shooting in law enforcement, and I wouldnt wish it on anyone what they are going through, and I feel for this guys family, he was taken away from them tragically.
I would like to slap the guys that filmed this in the head, not for filming, but for thinking it was such a big joke. Wait til they get to sit in court, maybe thier stupid selves will grow up some.
quote:Originally posted by partisan
quote:Originally posted by Laredo Lefty
quote:Originally posted by partisan
Only a dim witted fellow cop could find justification in this MURDER!!!!!!!! The guy had a metal pipe. The cowardly cops have metal pipes......they are called BATONS!!!! There was 2 cops against one man with apparent mental problems.
You dont use metal pipes against metal pipes. You clearly dont know anything about the escalation of force taught in police academys. The way to win in an altercation like this is to use a level of force that exceeds that of you adversary. The ofcr tried the taser, that didn't work. Batons, by the way many of which are "wood" "not metal", weigh a fraction of what that metal bar weighs, are no good in this case.
Apparent mental problems? How do you know. He may have been doped up on drugs or just plain pissed off at something. That does not matter anyway. Cops are injured and killed all the time by people with "mental problems"
I don't know how long ago you were in LE, but the colaspable batons in use today are metal! As far back as the early 80's there was the PR-24, which was USUALLY metal. There are too many cops in this Country that are afraid to mix it up. If you are a "girl" cop I guess you have no other choice, but a man can stop a lot of trouble without ever touching his firearm!
While working in LE I worked extra jobs on the side. For 3 years I worked in some of the roughest beach bars in the area. One bar was the favorite hangout of the off duty oil rig workers in the Gulf. Through the years more than one of them told me they came to this bar to "fight and f***."
In all these weekends working there I had to use my PR-24 ONE time! I never even thought of firearm on my side and ankle. The first minute I stepped into this bar I walked right into a fist fight between 2 drunk oil rig guys. I guess I could have used the PR-24, or maybe my pistol on them, but instaed I broke it up with my fist. They had fist, I had fist, so there was NO reason to go any further into the "bag-O-weapons" scenario.
Now as a citizen I am only allowed to use deadly force to protect me or someone elses life. If I shoot a slight built man holding a pipe that is never raised above his head I doubt it would be ruled "justifiable", especially if I shot him 10 times!!!!!!!
Yes,collapsable batons are metal but not everyone uses them. Wood, metal and plastic batons are still in use here on the west coast. I switched to nunchaku's after carrying a "plastic" PR-24 for years. I actually broke my PR-24 on a guy in a bar fight.
"Afraid to mix it up" Cops are not paid to get down and mix it up. They are supposed to end the conflict WITHOUT getting injured, not going to the hospital with their teeth knocked out, head split open or whatever. I have used my fists many times to break things up but fists were clearly not appropriate in this case.
A pistol to break up a FIST fight. Would you like to rethink that statement??? Your forgetting, the guy who was killed here was attacking a cop with a heavy metal bar, not his fists.
That last paragraph. Citizens and police officers are held to the same standards when it comes to using deadly force, no more or less. The susp was not slightly built and did raise the pipe, 2 hand baseball bat hold, to strike the ofcr with the taser, watch it a few more times.
Like I said before, I wish I knew as much about other Peoples Jobs as they know about mine!!
Armchair experts at the best. I'd have done............[B)]
I would like to see the split second decisions that would be made by some of these people, Other then Soiling their pants.[:0]
As far back as the early 80's there was the PR-24, which was USUALLY metal.
In all these weekends working there I had to use my PR-24 ONE time!PR-24 is a specific model manufactured by Monadnock, not a name for a general baton type. Some of their later side handle baton sub-models were metal, but when stating simply "PR-24" you're in fact referring to a polycarbonate baton.
I carried the PR-24 for years and was trained in it's use by factory authorized personnel. Per all impact weapon training I've received over the years, when confronted with someone armed with a fire axe NO baton is the recommended weapon. This is even according to their manufacturers.
It's ridiculous to even suggest that people should choose to enage someone armed with an axe in some sort of bizarre, swordfight-like contest using batons.
quote:Originally posted by Laredo Lefty
Yes,collapsable batons are metal but not everyone uses them. Wood, metal and plastic batons are still in use here on the west coast. I switched to nunchaku's after carrying a "plastic" PR-24 for years. I actually broke my PR-24 on a guy in a bar fight.
"Afraid to mix it up" Cops are not paid to get down and mix it up. They are supposed to end the conflict WITHOUT getting injured, not going to the hospital with their teeth knocked out, head split open or whatever. I have used my fists many times to break things up but fists were clearly not appropriate in this case.
A pistol to break up a FIST fight. Would you like to rethink that statement??? Your forgetting, the guy who was killed here was attacking a cop with a heavy metal bar, not his fists.
That last paragraph. Citizens and police officers are held to the same standards when it comes to using deadly force, no more or less. The susp was not slightly built and did raise the pipe, 2 hand baseball bat hold, to strike the ofcr with the taser, watch it a few more times.
I seldom weigh in on these discussions, but that statement has, time and time again, proven to be patently not the case! I'm sorry, but that is simply not accurate. Law enforcement is given significantly wider latitude in the use of deadly force than the average citizen. Now, it may be a function of other LEO witnesses slanting the events and testimony, or simply the credibility of witnesses (LEO vs. citizen).
In the past few years we have all seen countless questionable deadly force incidents where the LEO is exhonerated only to have the city get hammered mercilessly in civil litigation...and rightfully so. It's happened here in Denver quite a bit lately. In fact, Denver even brought in a new CoP to deal with the brutality issue (both deadly force and other).
Again, with all due respect, I heartily disagree with your assertation.
I'm sure it varies from state to state, but in Illinois a peace officer certainly has a much wider set of circumstances in which he can legally use deadly force in comparison to an avereage joe.
Seems like in the old days, a couple of cops thumping the guy with billy clubs would have been plenty. [;)]
was the dog too busy to be let loose on the guy?
Not impressed with the cop holding his gun sideways by the way.
5 shots while verticle, and 5 more after horizontal. Hmmm.
You cops shoot to disarm right? I dunno. Maybe suicide by cop...
1 woman injured by flying glass from a stray bullet. Are cops or dept held liable for colladeral damages as we chl people are?
quote:Originally posted by partisan
Only a dim witted fellow cop could find justification in this MURDER!!!!!!!! The guy had a metal pipe. The cowardly cops have metal pipes......they are called BATONS!!!! There was 2 cops against one man with apparent mental problems.
You dont use metal pipes against metal pipes. You clearly dont know anything about the escalation of force taught in police academys. The way to win in an altercation like this is to use a level of force that exceeds that of you adversary. The ofcr tried the taser, that didn't work. Batons, by the way many of which are "wood" "not metal", weigh a fraction of what that metal bar weighs, are no good in this case.
Apparent mental problems? How do you know. He may have been doped up on drugs or just plain pissed off at something. That does not matter anyway. Cops are injured and killed all the time by people with "mental porblems"
funny you point that out. ever tried to swing a solid metal rod? It's far easier and effective to use a lighter object, like a nightstick. Solid metal items don't swing too well.
I think cop 1 should have used pepper spray while cop 2 used stun gun and let the dog on him. I think the 3 way sustained attack would have over whelmed the idiot and lead to his safe arrest. I am not convinced he was a danger to anything other than windows and furniture. After all, he didn't seem to take any actions against employees or customers while inside. just the store itself. And he didn't appear to be violent as he left the building, just holding his metal thingyabob.
if he had made a jabbing motion at the cop, then unload on him, that what you do with poles or rods, or sticks. you should jab, not swing. Swinging puts you at a disadvantage.
Another question....Is it possible that tazor shots to the face might affect vision?