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Mini article by former Ruger employee
offeror
Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
Here's an interesting tech perspective on the Ruger Minis I found via a 'net search. Purely for informational value:
My Observations on the Ruger Mini-14
By Ed Harris Rev. 5-25-94
When I was at Ruger I tested hundreds of Mini 14 rifles of all configurations, conducting audit shoots of normal production, as well as R&D testing of the full-auto AC556, AC556 and the experimental XGI rifle in .308 Win, and assisting in the development of the Mini Thirty in 7.62x39.
To be COMPLETELY honest I was disappointed with its accuracy when compared to the M16A1 and A2 rifles, with which I am very familiar. The Mini 14 gives reasonable performance for an American-made rifle in its price range, and is safe, serviceable and realiable. It just isn't all that accurate. You can find individual rifles which shoot well, but these are statistical aberrations. We tried to test a large enough sample of rifles to pick "good" ones, then painstakingly took them apart and gaged every part to see if we could tweak tolerances or make design changes which would significantly improve accuracy without increasing production cost. It couldn't be done. We did learn a few things, however.
The long run average group size for standard Mini-14 rifles fired from a test stand is about 4-5" for ten-shot groups with M193 or M855 ammunition of "average" quality [at 100 yards? -- PAZ], producing an acceptance Mean Radius of 1.6-1.6" at 200 yds from a test barrel [Ed has an error in there somewhere -- PAZ]. The M16A1 or A2 do this at 200 yards from a machine rest. I believe the biggest factor in Mini-14 accuracy is irregular contact between the gas block and the face of the slideblock, welded to the slide handle (aka operating rod).[from Ed's comment below that Minis are tested for a 2" group at 50 yards (1" radius), we can infer that the Mini is expected to shoot a 4" group at 100 yards, or an 8" group at 200 yards. Thus, the Mini-14's 200 yard Mean Radius would be 4"--twice as bad as expected from Military AMMO (2.00" mean radius max. avg. at 200 yards), presumabably fired from a test rig of some kind. -- PAZ]
If you disassemble the rifle and inspect the face of the slide block and the rear of the gas block assembly, you may find that the face of the slide block strikes one side or the other of the gas block, rather than making a uniform and symmetrical imprint. This asymmetrical contact causes fliers. The fit-up can sometimes be improved by grinding 0.005-.010" off the face of the slide, so that with the slide fully forward, a .001" shim can be inserted between the slide block and gas block and be clear all the way around. This way the forward motion of the slide is stopped by the right locking lug in the cam pocket of the slide handle, rather than by the slide block slamming against the gas block, as is the case with the M1 Garand rifle.
I caution against removing the gas block, because these are installed in a fixture at the factory to insure proper alignment. There is a small bushing in the gas block which locates it on the barrel. You must be careful not to lose this. This is why the gas block screws are staked in place on newer guns. [Once the gas port and bushing recess are drilled, I cannot see how there can be any variation in alignment of the gas block -- PAZ]
The condition of the muzzle crown is important as well as the straightness of the barrel. Sometimes the barrels are bent when pressing the front sight on. Usually they catch this at the factory and they correct them if it causes fliers in the range, but since they only shoot indoors at 50 yards, for a 2" group, the accuracy standards are more in keeping for a plinking rifle than for the serious accuracy enthusiast.
The Mini-14 chamber conforms to U.S. dwg. #8448649, which is used for the M16A1 chamber. It has a .225" cylindrical ball seat with a slight freebore. I do not believe the GI chamber causes any inaccuracy in this type of rifle, because I have fired thousands of rounds in heavy test barrels with this chamber which gave fine accuracy. For an accuracy load I suggest 21-22 grs. of 4198 (either IMR or Hodgdon) with the 52 or 53-gr. Sierra bullets loaded to 2.25" OAL, or 23-23.5 grs. of H322. The 52-gr. Nosler solid base also is quite accurate.
The Mini-14 Ranch Rifle was made in .222 Remington for the export market to France, Belgium and Italy where civilians are not allowed to own firearms of military caliber. Overruns were sold in the U.S.
end
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
My Observations on the Ruger Mini-14
By Ed Harris Rev. 5-25-94
When I was at Ruger I tested hundreds of Mini 14 rifles of all configurations, conducting audit shoots of normal production, as well as R&D testing of the full-auto AC556, AC556 and the experimental XGI rifle in .308 Win, and assisting in the development of the Mini Thirty in 7.62x39.
To be COMPLETELY honest I was disappointed with its accuracy when compared to the M16A1 and A2 rifles, with which I am very familiar. The Mini 14 gives reasonable performance for an American-made rifle in its price range, and is safe, serviceable and realiable. It just isn't all that accurate. You can find individual rifles which shoot well, but these are statistical aberrations. We tried to test a large enough sample of rifles to pick "good" ones, then painstakingly took them apart and gaged every part to see if we could tweak tolerances or make design changes which would significantly improve accuracy without increasing production cost. It couldn't be done. We did learn a few things, however.
The long run average group size for standard Mini-14 rifles fired from a test stand is about 4-5" for ten-shot groups with M193 or M855 ammunition of "average" quality [at 100 yards? -- PAZ], producing an acceptance Mean Radius of 1.6-1.6" at 200 yds from a test barrel [Ed has an error in there somewhere -- PAZ]. The M16A1 or A2 do this at 200 yards from a machine rest. I believe the biggest factor in Mini-14 accuracy is irregular contact between the gas block and the face of the slideblock, welded to the slide handle (aka operating rod).[from Ed's comment below that Minis are tested for a 2" group at 50 yards (1" radius), we can infer that the Mini is expected to shoot a 4" group at 100 yards, or an 8" group at 200 yards. Thus, the Mini-14's 200 yard Mean Radius would be 4"--twice as bad as expected from Military AMMO (2.00" mean radius max. avg. at 200 yards), presumabably fired from a test rig of some kind. -- PAZ]
If you disassemble the rifle and inspect the face of the slide block and the rear of the gas block assembly, you may find that the face of the slide block strikes one side or the other of the gas block, rather than making a uniform and symmetrical imprint. This asymmetrical contact causes fliers. The fit-up can sometimes be improved by grinding 0.005-.010" off the face of the slide, so that with the slide fully forward, a .001" shim can be inserted between the slide block and gas block and be clear all the way around. This way the forward motion of the slide is stopped by the right locking lug in the cam pocket of the slide handle, rather than by the slide block slamming against the gas block, as is the case with the M1 Garand rifle.
I caution against removing the gas block, because these are installed in a fixture at the factory to insure proper alignment. There is a small bushing in the gas block which locates it on the barrel. You must be careful not to lose this. This is why the gas block screws are staked in place on newer guns. [Once the gas port and bushing recess are drilled, I cannot see how there can be any variation in alignment of the gas block -- PAZ]
The condition of the muzzle crown is important as well as the straightness of the barrel. Sometimes the barrels are bent when pressing the front sight on. Usually they catch this at the factory and they correct them if it causes fliers in the range, but since they only shoot indoors at 50 yards, for a 2" group, the accuracy standards are more in keeping for a plinking rifle than for the serious accuracy enthusiast.
The Mini-14 chamber conforms to U.S. dwg. #8448649, which is used for the M16A1 chamber. It has a .225" cylindrical ball seat with a slight freebore. I do not believe the GI chamber causes any inaccuracy in this type of rifle, because I have fired thousands of rounds in heavy test barrels with this chamber which gave fine accuracy. For an accuracy load I suggest 21-22 grs. of 4198 (either IMR or Hodgdon) with the 52 or 53-gr. Sierra bullets loaded to 2.25" OAL, or 23-23.5 grs. of H322. The 52-gr. Nosler solid base also is quite accurate.
The Mini-14 Ranch Rifle was made in .222 Remington for the export market to France, Belgium and Italy where civilians are not allowed to own firearms of military caliber. Overruns were sold in the U.S.
end
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Comments
Often the mind believes it is thinking, when it is only passing from one metaphor to the next.
If I'm wrong please correct me, I won't be offended.
The sound of a 12 gauge pump clears a house fatser than Rosie O eats a Big Mac !
Amazing.Right from the horses mouth.
God,Guts,& GunsHave we lost all 3 ??
Famous line from the movie Tombstone with Val Kilmer:
Bandit to Doc Halliday:"You're just a drunk piano player, you're so drunk , you're probably seeing double!"
Doc Halliday: "I've got two guns, one for each of you! "
psalms 16
Chris8161
Admit nothing, deny everything, demand proof!
To Ride, shoot straight,and speak the truth
This was the Ancient law of Youth
Old times are past, old times are done:
But the Law runs true, O little son!
About 9 months ago I bought a new mini 14 197 series and the gas block screws were not staked in place. I removed the gas block and put a smaller gas bushing in mine to stop it from throwing the brass so far. It is hard to do at all, I have never torn one apart and had no problems doing the job at all. Got it down from 35' to about 12' and I might put the next smaller bushing in. It is my understanding that you can get it down to about 1"-1.5" groups at 100 yds quite easily. I havent had mine out to 100 yds since I did the work, which is not expensive to do. As for the ammo I am getting reports from people that they are having better success with the 42 and 62 gr. bullets not the 50-55 gr.
Guncontrol-The ability to hit what your aiming at.
former air operations officer SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team 2. former navy skeet team, navy rifle/pistol team member. co-owner skeetmaster tubes inc.. owner/operator professional shooting instruction.
Former Member U.S. Navy Shooting Team
Former NSSA All American
Navy Distinguished Pistol Shot
MO, CT, VA.
Greg
Former
USMC
ANGLICO
a 223 chamber should not be used to fire 5.56 ammo as it will hold the bullet back a little causing excessive chamber pressure.
Anyone beg to differ? Please email sales@model1sales.com and ask them why they sell AR15 kits in either 223 or 5.56. It's because they are not the same.
Somebody try a box of 5.56 in your mini and report back. The mini has a 5.56 chamber.
5.56 and 223 are two totally different chambers as the throat for the bullet is cut to different specs in the barrel. Thus why 223 ammo is not accurate in 5.56 chambers.
a 223 chamber should not be used to fire 5.56 ammo as it will hold the bullet back a little causing excessive chamber pressure.
Anyone beg to differ? Please email sales@model1sales.com and ask them why they sell AR15 kits in either 223 or 5.56. It's because they are not the same.
Somebody try a box of 5.56 in your mini and report back. The mini has a 5.56 chamber.
Bullpucky.
Let's see if you can back up the bullpucky with facts.
http://www.fulton-armory.com/556-vs-223-Chambers.htm
http://www.armalite.com/library/techNotes/tnote45.htm
http://www.winchester.com/law/news/news.eye?storyid=11
http://www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/page/page/727151.htm
Ball is the type of ammo, not a chamber.
Fer reals?
Very valuable info. Thanks for sharing it.
Famous line from the movie Tombstone with Val Kilmer:
Bandit to Doc Halliday:"You're just a drunk piano player, you're so drunk , you're probably seeing double!"
Doc Halliday: "I've got two guns, one for each of you! "
Is it more valuable now, 7 years later?....[:o)]
quote:Originally posted by Ruger22
Very valuable info. Thanks for sharing it.
Famous line from the movie Tombstone with Val Kilmer:
Bandit to Doc Halliday:"You're just a drunk piano player, you're so drunk , you're probably seeing double!"
Doc Halliday: "I've got two guns, one for each of you! "
Is it more valuable now, 7 years later?....[:o)]
I hate to say it but I've been thinking about trying another Mini-14. Maybe one of these new EBR ones with the flash hider. I hear Ruger replaced their worn out tooling finally.
Was not impressed with the last Mini-14 I had and traded off for something I no longer have.
While the external case dimensions are very similar, the .223 Remington and 5.56x45mm differ in both maximum pressure and chamber shape. The maximum and mean pressures for some varieties of the 5.56 mm (different cartridge designations have different standards) exceed the SAAMI maximums for the .223 Remington, and the methods for measuring pressures differ between NATO and SAAMI.[2] The 5.56 mm chamber specification has also changed over time since its adoption, as the current military loading (NATO SS-109 or US M855) uses longer, heavier bullets than the original loading did. This has resulted in a lengthening of the throat in the 5.56 mm chamber. Thus, while .223 Remington ammunition can be safely fired in a 5.56 mm chambered gun, firing 5.56 mm ammunition in a .223 Remington chamber may produce pressures in excess of even the 5.56 mm specifications due to the shorter throat
5.56 dimensions:
Take note of the shoulder differences.
People often put down the AK design as terribly inaccurate, but my AK shoots groups comparable to what my old Mini14 was capable of with comparable, military type ammo.
[:D]Can't help but think about the TV series The A Team. They keep shooting and shooting their Mini 14s and never hit anything.[:D]
Thiers were FA often in twin mounts, never figured out why they chose minis unless it was because of low budget TV.
Remember the bad guys never hit anything whith the AKs/ARs either.
for proper disposal.
Really I love my mini-14,now if I was wanting to shoot
the nad's off a flea out past 100 yds. it's not the rifle
I would grab, but if I needed to defend my home when it
hits the fan I would grab it before any of my bolt guns
or my shotguns that give me five rounds of buckshot.
Yes of course there are better rifles out there, but
the mini-14 fills a nitch preaty well.
The article just affirms out-of-the-box accuracy issues that we've known about since this design was introduced.
People often put down the AK design as terribly inaccurate, but my AK shoots groups comparable to what my old Mini14 was capable of with comparable, military type ammo.
I had the same experience. The Mini-14 I had shot soccer ball size groups at 100yds. My Ak's - soft ball size groups.
The two radii mentioned are incorrectly written as 0.00 which obviously isn't correct. However by looking at the start place and end place of the drawn angle it easy to see they start and end at the same place.
Sooo...looks like there is NO difference in the external dimensions of the two cases. All the other numbers are the same I believe. Those drawing pretty well prove that.
So there should be no problem with a handloader using either .223 or 5.56 cases in either a .223 or 5.56 chambered rifle.
Larry