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fast and furious question
1911a1-fan
Member Posts: 51,193 ✭✭
read in the local news today about holder and the fast and furious again, and as always it gives a synapses of the event, now my question is
we all know here how gun purchases are conducted, and how they should not be conducted, what bothers me is a very fine detail, they say that they allowed "straw purchases" to occur{what a straw purchase is, is not the question}, but how did they go about this process?
how did they in fine detail?, did they personally set up shop, or use several ffl's, the amount of weapons involved tell me this is all bs
to allow straw purchases is one thing in itself, to allow it at high volume, and to specific persons is another
even their admission sounds like bs
we all know here how gun purchases are conducted, and how they should not be conducted, what bothers me is a very fine detail, they say that they allowed "straw purchases" to occur{what a straw purchase is, is not the question}, but how did they go about this process?
how did they in fine detail?, did they personally set up shop, or use several ffl's, the amount of weapons involved tell me this is all bs
to allow straw purchases is one thing in itself, to allow it at high volume, and to specific persons is another
even their admission sounds like bs
Comments
I'd be surprised if we ever know what really happened and to what extent it happened.
did they know who was the purchaser(s) before hand to allow it?, i have never met a dealer that would proceed after you fail the question on the 4473, they would not call and bring attention to themselves to the batf, sale would be ended, and form trashed, if there was a "allowance" to allow them to proceed, how many where involved, and how did they get involved?, if approached by the batf how many of you would have trusted them and proceed to make these sales?, no letter has been produced, no actual dealer involvement has been produced
i'm calling bs all the way around, using the excuse of "straw purchases" is convenient to use as a scapegoat while claiming a loop hole in the gun control process
the logistics of it just doesn't add up, do the math on this and come up to a logical method to do this as they claim it happened
MOST of the F&F guns were sold by several large dealers to individuals who could legally acquire guns. However, several dealers became suspicious of multiple purchases by the same person, & phoned ATF asking for advice; ATF's response was "sell the guns, we are aware of this situation." It was only because of the integrity of these dealers (who went to the press) that we even know about F&F.
In other cases, ATF agents gave seized money to their CI's with instructions to buy guns from a dealer & sell them to known smugglers.
There may have been other variations, but we won't know about them until the Big Eared Leader releases the results of the investigation that he assigned to Eric Holder. I'm holding my breath.
Neal
Also it was a two pronged Spear,One was to let Guns into Mexico to track Them(Government Version) and the other was to show the need for stronger Gun Control in This Country.
The only reason We even know about it is because some Dealers and ATF Agent complained about it.
Well, the definition of a "straw purchase" is when a person who cannot legally acquire a gun has another person, who CAN legally acquire a gun, appear before an FFL & complete the 4473 as if he is the one making the purchase. I am unaware of any straw purchases associated with F&F.
MOST of the F&F guns were sold by several large dealers to individuals who could legally acquire guns. However, several dealers became suspicious of multiple purchases by the same person, & phoned ATF asking for advice; ATF's response was "sell the guns, we are aware of this situation." It was only because of the integrity of these dealers (who went to the press) that we even know about F&F.
In other cases, ATF agents gave seized money to their CI's with instructions to buy guns from a dealer & sell them to known smugglers.
There may have been other variations, but we won't know about them until the Big Eared Leader releases the results of the investigation that he assigned to Eric Holder. I'm holding my breath.
Neal
as i stated i was clear on the definition of straw purchase
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/oct/17/fast-furious-how-a-botched-operation-spawned-fatal/?page=all
They paid cash, as much as $900,000, and with each purchase they signed their names on Form 4473, a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) document, swearing under the threat of committing a felony that they were not purchasing the weapons for someone else - that they were not "straw buyers."
But they were, and the ATF knew it.
If Bubba is coming into your shop with another person, who is saying things like "Yeah, get one of those, and 2 of those..", whether Bubba's companion is ineligible to buy it himself is not germane.
Watched that situation last week in my LGS. Dealer told Bubbete "Sorry, but you cannot buy a gun in our shop. I am not convinced this purchase is for you."
If Babba has purchased 5 of the same gun twice in a week, and you notify the ATF office of suspicious behavior, and they tell you "Yes, we know- don't refuse the sale."- that leads you into a mess like this.
From several years ago, and from Virginia. Same song, different day. http://www.atfabuse.com/atfabuse-20.html
Have to disagree. "Straw Purchase" or "Strawman Purchase" is defined as buying a gun on behalf of someone else- not a bonafide gift, but buying a gun FOR someone other than the person signing the 4473. See the ATF training video on Strawman sales.
If Bubba is coming into your shop with another person, who is saying things like "Yeah, get one of those, and 2 of those..", whether Bubba's companion is ineligible to buy it himself is not germane.
Watched that situation last week in my LGS. Dealer told Bubbete "Sorry, but you cannot buy a gun in our shop. I am not convinced this purchase is for you."
If Babba has purchased 5 of the same gun twice in a week, and you notify the ATF office of suspicious behavior, and they tell you "Yes, we know- don't refuse the sale."- that leads you into a mess like this.
From several years ago, and from Virginia. Same song, different day. http://www.atfabuse.com/atfabuse-20.html
why do you disagree and say the same thing?
Besides, no one saw the entire picture until the F&F operation became public knowledge. All the dealers knew was, they had properly reported suspicious behavior, an operation was in progress, & their failure to cooperate could have jeopardized an investigation. Only a fool would have resisted.
Neal
i think in your scenario, a ffl called to report suspicious behavior, or sent in proper paper work suspicious behavior correct, and given direction to disreguard it?
that would be a acceptable answer to my original inquiry, but the amount of fire arms involved makes me suspicious to the current claims made by the government that this was not what happened
sorry if i apear cynical, or perhaps tinfoil hat at the moment, but the logistics of this just raises an eyebrow with me and i do not believe their claims
1. i do not believe this entire program was not to track guns to mexico, it came at an awful convenient time eric holder started his first attack on gun owners, and gun owners rights, i still think they are pulling a ruse, or distraction from the original agenda, which was to blame our process of legal gun purchasing as the blame, it makes zero sense, they could trace any firearm sold in the us at any time, way to loose of a op for me
2. i do not believe due to the amount of guns involved legal ffl holders where used to transfer all of these gun to mexico, not only due to the volume of firearms, the type of fire arms as well, i have yet to see a single gun dealer regardless of the class dealer 01-07 carry a single hand grenade
3. be right back there is 4 black suv's in my driveway [;)]
But, when the suspicious dealers contacted ATF & were told to go ahead with the sales, it's unlikely they were told any of the details; federal agencies keep tactics to themselves. I would guess that the dealers assumed that ATF was using tracking devices or some other means to follow the guns, something we now know wasn't done.
Just saying, you can't blame the dealers, who are walking a fine line.
Neal
"J&G sold 60 guns to alleged straw buyers. ATF agents told him on the phone and in person to let the sales happen."
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/03/09/project-gun-runner-scandal-border/
Lets call this what it really was.
A scam to get more laws on the books to limit the 2A.
The beginning is that it was a full court press, repeated by every mouthpiece in the media and every hack in this administration that a "river of iron" was going from gunshops in the US to Mexico and being used to kill Mexicans. "90%" was bandied about from the lips of the h half-brown * clown, Plagiarist Joe Biden, Cankles the Clown Clinton, and Janet Incompetano...and repeating the same meme.
Except it was a LIE. When the LIE was exposed, this administration set about to make the LIE into the Truth.
How did they do that?
Easy, they gave known cartel associates money, and in some cases ATF agent purchased the guns with CASH, taxpayer cash, STIMULUS cash,and later gave those weapons to cartel associates.
The agents on the ground were TOLD to "stand down" and let those weapons "walk". In one instance, noted in the LA Times, an individual with more than 30 firearms was allowed to go into Mexico with them after invoking the name of his ATF contact.
This wasn't the "out of control" "lost track" "rogue operation" or "started locally" lie as has been repeated often by administration hacks....as the documents have borne out, this outrage was orchestrated and was operationally controlled by Lanny Breur for almost a year.
Lanny Breur answers only to Eric Hi Yella Holder, the perjurer currently usurping the Attorney General's office.
quote:Originally posted by 1911a1fan
read in the local news today about holder and the fast and furious again, and as always it gives a synapses of the event, now my question is
we all know here how gun purchases are conducted, and how they should not be conducted, what bothers me is a very fine detail, they say that they allowed "straw purchases" to occur{what a straw purchase is, is not the question}, but how did they go about this process?
how did they in fine detail?, did they personally set up shop, or use several ffl's, the amount of weapons involved tell me this is all bs
to allow straw purchases is one thing in itself, to allow it at high volume, and to specific persons is another
even their admission sounds like bs