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Veterans and society
Rack Ops
Member Posts: 18,597 ✭✭✭
Didn't want to hijack someone else's thread, so I decided start a new one.
In my opinion, the "setting apart" of veterans is reaching the point of being destructive....even though it comes from a position of well-meaning. This setting apart comes in two forms.
People will see the small "Iraq veteran" tag on my Jeep and walk up to me and thank me for my service. Not to sound rude, but I don't ask for your thanks. I went in for my own reasons, just as you didn't go in for your own. We're citizens. We're equals. I'm not better than you because I was in the military. Get a job and pay your taxes and we're even, I swear.
The other is sympathy. When people learn that I was a) an Iraq Veteran b) a Marine and c) an Infantryman, it will often illicit a sort of sad expression, maybe a hand on the shoulder to let me know they understand how horrible things must have been for me...sometimes, even a question: Have I ever thought about going to counseling? Those things are available at the VA, you know. If you get a VA rating, you can even get a bunch of extra benefits.
Look....I'm fortunate. I came back with all my fingers and toes, the only holes in me are the ones I started with, and I don't have nightmares. No, I don't want to talk about it all the damn time, but that doesn't mean I assume the fetal position when the neighbor fires up his lawnmower.
When I got out, the only thing I wanted was an opportunity to excel in the society that I was re-integrating into:
As such, I have unapologetically benefited from a couple veterans programs:
I turned my GI Bill into a college degree
I turned my college degree (and a veterans hiring preference) into a good job.
I used a VA loan guarantee to buy a house that I otherwise would not have been able to afford the down payment on.
I have no interest in getting a free house, or free medical, or free college for my wife and kids. They can work and sacrifice for those things like everyone else does.
Note: This does not imply the support of removal of the VA Disability and Health System, although I believe both are being grossly abused.
In short: I am not better than someone who has not served, and I am certainly not a "hero". I do not seek your thanks or a stream of gov't bene's for the the rest of my life....and I believe that the showering of those on those who have served, however well-intentioned it may be, is corrosive to the long term future of our country.
In my opinion, the "setting apart" of veterans is reaching the point of being destructive....even though it comes from a position of well-meaning. This setting apart comes in two forms.
People will see the small "Iraq veteran" tag on my Jeep and walk up to me and thank me for my service. Not to sound rude, but I don't ask for your thanks. I went in for my own reasons, just as you didn't go in for your own. We're citizens. We're equals. I'm not better than you because I was in the military. Get a job and pay your taxes and we're even, I swear.
The other is sympathy. When people learn that I was a) an Iraq Veteran b) a Marine and c) an Infantryman, it will often illicit a sort of sad expression, maybe a hand on the shoulder to let me know they understand how horrible things must have been for me...sometimes, even a question: Have I ever thought about going to counseling? Those things are available at the VA, you know. If you get a VA rating, you can even get a bunch of extra benefits.
Look....I'm fortunate. I came back with all my fingers and toes, the only holes in me are the ones I started with, and I don't have nightmares. No, I don't want to talk about it all the damn time, but that doesn't mean I assume the fetal position when the neighbor fires up his lawnmower.
When I got out, the only thing I wanted was an opportunity to excel in the society that I was re-integrating into:
As such, I have unapologetically benefited from a couple veterans programs:
I turned my GI Bill into a college degree
I turned my college degree (and a veterans hiring preference) into a good job.
I used a VA loan guarantee to buy a house that I otherwise would not have been able to afford the down payment on.
I have no interest in getting a free house, or free medical, or free college for my wife and kids. They can work and sacrifice for those things like everyone else does.
Note: This does not imply the support of removal of the VA Disability and Health System, although I believe both are being grossly abused.
In short: I am not better than someone who has not served, and I am certainly not a "hero". I do not seek your thanks or a stream of gov't bene's for the the rest of my life....and I believe that the showering of those on those who have served, however well-intentioned it may be, is corrosive to the long term future of our country.
Comments
Since guys open up to another vet I do try to get the ones that may need it to seek counseling, but try to push them to another vet friend of mine who is a councilor.
With all these fake people claiming to be a Sniper or recon, it actually get hard to convince someone that I did not see combat that I was a Mechanic.
I never even really lived in bad conditions. Sure I was at 29 Palms but I loved it.
You should have seen how the RVN vets were treated when they came home. They were turned away from many a job, people did not want to rent to them or sell to them and the GI bill of rights vanished not long after.
I did as I joined as it was ending.
You should have seen how the RVN vets were treated when they came home. They were turned away from many a job, people did not want to rent to them or sell to them and the GI bill of rights vanished not long after.
Obviously, the current situation is society's idea of "making things right" for the way veterans were treated after Vietnam.
It was nothing short of disgraceful.
In seeking to correct the mistake, I believe many have over-corrected.
It never occurs to me to do anything other than acknowledge their thanks, and as graciously as I can accept their thanks.
Not sure why I would do otherwise.
That DOES make you a better person in my book. Even if you disagree with the "better" however, you are most definitely different. That difference sets you aside in many ways from those who didn't choose your path. The proof of that is the complete misunderstanding of what military service is by that other group of people. Weren't there, didn't do that, can't possibly fathom what it entails.
So forgive them their well-intentioned but clueless comments, my brother. And accept some from those of us on your side of the divide: Thanks.
Anybody who took that oath is my brother or sister. Doesn't matter if your issue weapon was an F-16 or a keyboard; you served. More than that, you voluntarily served.
That DOES make you a better person in my book. Even if you disagree with the "better" however, you are most definitely different. That difference sets you aside in many ways from those who didn't choose your path. The proof of that is the complete misunderstanding of what military service is by that other group of people. Weren't there, didn't do that, can't possibly fathom what it entails.
So forgive them their well-intentioned but clueless comments, my brother. And accept some from those of us on your side of the divide: Thanks.
With all due respect, and I understand you state it is your opinion, I have to throw a minor BS flag on those two sentences in red. I may not be able to describe what it smells like in a submarine or the sound of a bullet hitting the guy next to you, but to say that nobody is capable of understanding or appreciating a depth of commitment or the level of sacrifice endured is just not true. At least not true in any meaningful way.
With veterans I extend them the same courtesy I do every other human I meet. I neither exaggerate nor diminish their experiences. I just listen to what they want to share and respond accordingly.
Anybody who took that oath is my brother or sister. Doesn't matter if your issue weapon was an F-16 or a keyboard; you served. More than that, you voluntarily served.
That DOES make you a better person in my book. Even if you disagree with the "better" however, you are most definitely different. That difference sets you aside in many ways from those who didn't choose your path. The proof of that is the complete misunderstanding of what military service is by that other group of people. Weren't there, didn't do that, can't possibly fathom what it entails.
So forgive them their well-intentioned but clueless comments, my brother. And accept some from those of us on your side of the divide: Thanks.
Well said Rocky.
And its sad to be judged by those who never wore the boots or done the time in hostile lands so distant.
And its sad to be judged by those who never wore the boots or done the time in hostile lands so distant.
Why is that?
After all, they are the ones who are expected to pay for it.
quote:Originally posted by Rocky Raab
Anybody who took that oath is my brother or sister. Doesn't matter if your issue weapon was an F-16 or a keyboard; you served. More than that, you voluntarily served.
That DOES make you a better person in my book. Even if you disagree with the "better" however, you are most definitely different. That difference sets you aside in many ways from those who didn't choose your path. The proof of that is the complete misunderstanding of what military service is by that other group of people. Weren't there, didn't do that, can't possibly fathom what it entails.
So forgive them their well-intentioned but clueless comments, my brother. And accept some from those of us on your side of the divide: Thanks.
Well said Rocky.
And its sad to be judged by those who never wore the boots or done the time in hostile lands so distant.
I'm not judging Rocky. I have issue with his statement which is both general and inaccurate.
With veterans I extend them the same courtesy I do every other human I meet. I neither exaggerate nor diminish their experiences. I just listen to what they want to share and respond accordingly.
[/quote]
This is exactly what I'm talking about with things that chap my *. How in the world could you ever think you could imagine! I served in the Marine Corps in the 80s, didn't see the first bit of combat. I can't even imagine what some of my friends sons have delt with in Iraq and Afghanistan. I've seen the horrific, unedited videos and pictures brought home of real war. Its neither something to glorify or take lightly and I have seen some awfull ugly things in my lifetime that can't compare. All I can say to the ones that have chose not to enlist in any branch of service. Be very thankful that enough young men and women have steeped up to the plate so that YOU weren't forced to!!!!!!!
I believe after Nam and the start of the conservative talking heads like Limbaugh etc it helped and did change the attitude of the general population. Granted there still are a few Morres (however you say the fat *'s name) around and that type will always be around same in WWll and all our conflicts. Thankfully they now ride in the back of the bus
IMO I'm sure some will disagree the talking heads were a strong influence, but living and working from the start of Nam to the end I saw a lot change and it never really ended until they came on the air
With all due respect, and I understand you state it is your opinion, I have to throw a minor BS flag on those two sentences in red. I may not be able to describe what it smells like in a submarine or the sound of a bullet hitting the guy next to you, but to say that nobody is capable of understanding or appreciating a depth of commitment or the level of sacrifice endured is just not true. At least not true in any meaningful way.
With veterans I extend them the same courtesy I do every other human I meet. I neither exaggerate nor diminish their experiences. I just listen to what they want to share and respond accordingly.
This is exactly what I'm talking about with things that chap my *. How in the world could you ever think you could imagine! I served in the Marine Corps in the 80s, didn't see the first bit of combat. I can't even imagine what some of my friends sons have delt with in Iraq and Afghanistan. I've seen the horrific, unedited videos and pictures brought home of real war. Its neither something to glorify or take lightly and I have seen some awfull ugly things in my lifetime that can't compare. All I can say to the ones that have chose not to enlist in any branch of service. Be very thankful that enough young men and women have steeped up to the plate so that YOU weren't forced to!!!!!!!
[/quote]
I'm sorry you have a chapped *. Your words above in red. Isn't that exactly what I said?????????? Apparently some of us have differing levels of imagination, empathy, and reading comprehension.
Your last sentence is insulting and ignorant. It presumes the only reason for not enlisting is fear or inability. Neither is correct or applicable.
With all due respect, and I understand you state it is your opinion, I have to throw a minor BS flag on those two sentences in red. I may not be able to describe what it smells like in a submarine or the sound of a bullet hitting the guy next to you, but to say that nobody is capable of understanding or appreciating a depth of commitment or the level of sacrifice endured is just not true. At least not true in any meaningful way.
With veterans I extend them the same courtesy I do every other human I meet. I neither exaggerate nor diminish their experiences. I just listen to what they want to share and respond accordingly.
This is exactly what I'm talking about with things that chap my *. How in the world could you ever think you could imagine! I served in the Marine Corps in the 80s, didn't see the first bit of combat. I can't even imagine what some of my friends sons have delt with in Iraq and Afghanistan. I've seen the horrific, unedited videos and pictures brought home of real war. Its neither something to glorify or take lightly and I have seen some awfull ugly things in my lifetime that can't compare. All I can say to the ones that have chose not to enlist in any branch of service. Be very thankful that enough young men and women have steeped up to the plate so that YOU weren't forced to!!!!!!!
[/quote]
I believe he said "understand" and "appreciate", not "imagine". That being said, anyone can "imagine" what anything is like, that is the very nature of imagination. There is no right or wrong answer when you imagine something,..it is simply, imagined.
Next, to think that someone serving doesn't directly affect their loved ones in a way that also changes their lives, is a fool. I have multiple cousins, an uncle, step-father, and grandfather who all served, anywhere from WWII to currently. PTSD took my uncle VIA drinking and hoarding etc. Watching and helping my father clean that place up after his death, made a profound impact on both of us. My grandfather woke up screaming for years after WWII, which affected my mother and aunts and uncles during their childhood. Several of my cousins are showing initial symptoms of PTSD, which is directly impacting their familes. ETC ETC. The realities of combat don't just belong to the soldiers. The families of those who serve also pay a price,....a price they didn't choose for themselves
As far as being thankful for something, doesn't everyone owe thanks to someone else for something??
Lets say,......Alexander Flemming?? know who he is?? He "stepped up"
How about,...William Gilbert??? You thank him every day?? He "stepped up"
How about Etienne Lenoir?? He "stepped up"
How about the Christopher Columbus?? He "stepped up"
and so on and so on and so on
A humble thanks is extended by me to every veteran. My Grandfather was the only one who made it to the top of the ladder in his tank, when the hand grenade was dropped inside. He picked pieces of his friends off of him and shrapnel out of him (purple heart #1). He was later shot in the leg (purple heart #2). My cousin flew helicopters in to pick up wounded in Iraq (what was left of them), day in and day out. My stepfather watched just about everyone he knew die and be replaced in Korea. Many time also picking pieces of his friends up off the ground, or off of him. The list of the things I have heard from these people is very long, but it never included a speech about how they thought they had "stepped up" and the rest of us hand't.
I might (for example) say I understand what it's like to be a surgeon, a concert violinist, a mailman, or a pro golfer. But I'd be seeing only the highlights - or lowlights - of any of them. That's hardly the whole picture.
Seen death, seen the rockets, bombs, bullets, lived in fear during complex attacks, celt alone during some of this, prayed for help, watched Americans be loaded onto the medivac after a bad attack, lost friends and today suffer from nightmares and have destroyed many friendships and aquaintences because of the fear of letting someone get to close.
The differences in most peoples eyes? I served in Iraq as a civillian, called a mercenary, been told to suck it up because we were supposedly paid well even though each one of us was a cheaper resolution to recruiting a new soldier. Any problems we have we are told "tough poop" and to get on with life because as contractors our problems do not matter. If you want to see what it is liked to be looked down upon for not wearig the uniform try bein a contractor, you will be looked upon as a leeching pile of whale poop. In most peoples eyes including the very people we served contractors are lower than a welfare leeching ghetto dweller who deserved to be killed over there. We are hated, no matter how or why we went there we are hated and that hate has driven many to suicide and the more contractors who die from illneses or injuries over there the better, the more contractors who off themselves the better because we have it coming. Yeah, go do a job and be "spit on" for doing it. It's hard, real hard to keep showing respect when we are treated like poop. Many of these opinions of contractors can be found right here on these boards.
As a fellow vet I mean no disrespect to the OP, but if no attention or "setting apart" is desired, why display the "Iraq Veteran" tag on your jeep? ...just sayin..
The money for the tag goes to veterans programs that I support.
At any rate, I'm not ashamed or embarrassed about my military service. I have a small sticker for my college too. Plenty of people have all sorts of stickers, decals, etc...from NRA decals to stick figure families. None of those are seen as a person setting themselves apart of society as a whole...why should mine?
quote:Originally posted by T J McGill
With all due respect, and I understand you state it is your opinion, I have to throw a minor BS flag on those two sentences in red. I may not be able to describe what it smells like in a submarine or the sound of a bullet hitting the guy next to you, but to say that nobody is capable of understanding or appreciating a depth of commitment or the level of sacrifice endured is just not true. At least not true in any meaningful way.
With veterans I extend them the same courtesy I do every other human I meet. I neither exaggerate nor diminish their experiences. I just listen to what they want to share and respond accordingly.
This is exactly what I'm talking about with things that chap my *. How in the world could you ever think you could imagine! I served in the Marine Corps in the 80s, didn't see the first bit of combat. I can't even imagine what some of my friends sons have delt with in Iraq and Afghanistan. I've seen the horrific, unedited videos and pictures brought home of real war. Its neither something to glorify or take lightly and I have seen some awfull ugly things in my lifetime that can't compare. All I can say to the ones that have chose not to enlist in any branch of service. Be very thankful that enough young men and women have steeped up to the plate so that YOU weren't forced to!!!!!!!
I'm sorry you have a chapped *. Your words above in red. Isn't that exactly what I said?????????? Apparently some of us have differing levels of imagination, empathy, and reading comprehension.
Your last sentence is insulting and ignorant. It presumes the only reason for not enlisting is fear or inability. Neither is correct or applicable.
[/quote]
Well sir, when you talk about you don't know the smells of a sub or the sound of a bullet hitting the guy next to you but you can understand the level of commitment or the level of sacrifice they endured, that's where I call the BS. Have you ever had a close friend that you concidered a brother have half of his head blown off next to you? That is taking lightly of what they have had to deal with.
As far as my last sentence, nothing insulting or ignorant about it. Either your not old enough to know or you just forgot, we use to have a draft in this country. If enough men and women didn't step up to the plate to serve, you might have not had the choice not to!
quote:Originally posted by reload999
As a fellow vet I mean no disrespect to the OP, but if no attention or "setting apart" is desired, why display the "Iraq Veteran" tag on your jeep? ...just sayin..
The money for the tag goes to veterans programs that I support.
At any rate, I'm not ashamed or embarrassed about my military service. I have a small sticker for my college too. Plenty of people have all sorts of stickers, decals, etc...from NRA decals to stick figure families. None of those are seen as a person setting themselves apart of society as a whole...why should mine?
I never felt that I needed any personal thanks, but something that cranks me, now that Vets are being treated with respect, is the number of posers who are trying to cash in on it. They should be sentenced to a minimum of three years of washing marble grave markers at Arlington.
I feel the same way.
No umbrage taken, skicat. But I think I'm right in saying if you haven't been military, you don't truly understand all of what that entails. One might imagine he knows but, at best, he can only guess at the larger aspects.
I might (for example) say I understand what it's like to be a surgeon, a concert violinist, a mailman, or a pro golfer. But I'd be seeing only the highlights - or lowlights - of any of them. That's hardly the whole picture.
OK, and thanks for taking my comments in the spirit intended.
You are referring to a gestalt level of understanding and I'll grant you are correct. I'll never have that regarding a military life. I would put forth that such a level of understanding isn't required most of the time. Obviously there are times that it does matter. To imply that level of understanding is always requisite for legitimate contribution from outside the military community is why I waved the BS flag.
The OP referred to the setting apart of veterans reaching the point where it is a negative. I have found most things in life oscillate like a pendulum between extremes and only a fraction of the time is spent at the ideal center position.