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Shipping a pistol to an FFL?
Night Stalker
Member Posts: 11,967
A guy I teach with wants to trade a pistol for a shotgun with an FFL holder in Arkansas.
The man on the receiving end is the FFL holder and has sent him a color copy. Today my friend asked me if it is ok to send the pistol to the FFL without going through an FFL on his end here at Leavenworth.
Obviously, the FFL in Arkansas will accept the pistol without an FFL shipping, but I don't know what advice to give him regarding the specific legal guidelines for a private individual shipping a pistol.
I think it has to go overnight, insured, with a tracking number and a signature on the FFL's end.
Am I missing something?
Thanks.
NS
The man on the receiving end is the FFL holder and has sent him a color copy. Today my friend asked me if it is ok to send the pistol to the FFL without going through an FFL on his end here at Leavenworth.
Obviously, the FFL in Arkansas will accept the pistol without an FFL shipping, but I don't know what advice to give him regarding the specific legal guidelines for a private individual shipping a pistol.
I think it has to go overnight, insured, with a tracking number and a signature on the FFL's end.
Am I missing something?
Thanks.
NS
Comments
CP
I'll recommend he use the FFL from our Trap/Skeet Club here on post as it just seems to be less complicated.
NS
And before anyone quotes the BATFE FAQ and says you HAVE to disclose it, try reading the actual LAW instead of the incorrect FAQ. The BATFE has repeatedly acknowledged the FAQ is incomplete and that if you are shipping interstate to an FFL you are exempt from the federal disclosure law and can take advantage of the less expensive GROUND rate. Happy shipping. [:)]
Neal
Any chance you could provide a link to where it says it's NOT required to disclose to the shipper that you are sending a firearm? The only thing I see is where the ATF requires you to tell them.
If you do a bit of research here you will see it has been posted many times. But, in the meantime, I'll go dig it out and post it here again. It is a combination of reading the actual law and NOT the incorrect BATFE FAQ, along with a personal letter from the BATFE acknowledging this.
Here you go:
Rather than relying on the incomplete FAQ, go read the actual LAW that the FAQ does correctly cite underneath, Section 922(e) and 27 CFR 478.31. You will find a HUGE exception to the disclosure requirement for anyone shipping interstate to an FFL.
"No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped..." (red color added to the KEY words).
That exclusion is HUGE. In fact, I would venture to guess that the vast majority of firearms shipped are going interstate and to an FFL, even if we look only at a site such as Gunbroker. You stand about a 49 out of 50 probability that the buyer and seller are NOT in the same state. The seller will ship ONLY to the buyer's FFL, which is required by federal law. If the lazy bums at BATFE would get off their collective butts and update their misleading FAQ it would refer to the most probable and most frequent types of interstate shipping instead of the the distinct minority, where a gun is NOT going interstate to an FFL. But, no, they are too busy.... One wonders if they get a kickback from the carriers for all of the unnecessary air shipments the BATFE has caused by NOT updating their FAQ. [}:)]
I brought this to the attention of the BATFE and asked them if my interpretation is correct and would they please update their FAQ. They acknowledged my interpretation but basically dodged updating their FAQ as unnecessary since they provided the actual law and left it up to YOU, the reader, to go do their own research on the exceptions. Here is a copy of their response. I had sent them a copy of a May 18, 2001 letter they had previously issued on the same subject and their position has not changed.
So, to sum it up: A carrier can demand to know what they are transporting and can refuse to take the package if you won't comply. So, if they ask and you tell, or you volunteer the information that a gun is in the box, they can and WILL require you to use the expensive shipping rates. HOWEVER, I and many others have NEVER been asked what is in the well wrapped and addressed plain brown box presented for shipping via GROUND rates. If the carrier does not ask, you are not required to volunteer the information and can then receive the economic benefit of the less expensive GROUND shipping rate. Some on these forums will caution against this with the logic that if it is lost or damaged, the carrier will fight you on the claim. Face it, that is an invalid argument because FedEx and UPS will ALWAYS fight ANY claim. Their standard position is that it got lost because YOU failed to address it correctly or it got damaged because YOU failed to pack it properly, and they will then use that as justification to refuse the claim. So, pack or even double pack it VERY well, and address it VERY legibly and you should have no problems. Many of us use this shipping method frequently and have never had any problems.
Everyone has a personal preference. I care not which method is chosen by others. I just care that people are still passing out incomplete/incorrect information and claiming it is federal law that ALL shipments must be disclosed under penalty of federal law, which is untrue.
In the end, to the best of my knowledge, you have three legal choices. 1. Pay the high rate and ship it yourself by air. 2. Pay the much less expensive GROUND rate and ship it yourself. 3. Pay an FFL to ship it cheaper via USPS.
(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or
cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for
transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to
persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers,
licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other
container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without
written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is
being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard
any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in
interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or
ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or
operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the
trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No
common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag,
or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package,
luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other
container contains a firearm.
http://www.justice.gov/usao/md/Public-Affairs/press_releases/press07/LonnyBaxterSentencedto2MonthsinJailonGunViolation.html
Neal
Your example is invalid as an argument against my statement of the law because that was a legally justified conviction. The defendant did NOT ship it to an FFL. To qualify under the notification exemption under 922(e) the shipment must be interstate and to a licensed individual. This criminal did not ship it to an FFL and thus DID violate the law.
18 U.S.C. ? 922 : US Code - Section 922: Unlawful acts
(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or
cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for
transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to
persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers,
licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other
container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without
written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is
being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard
any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in
interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or
ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or
operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the
trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No
common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag,
or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package,
luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other
container contains a firearm.
Mark you seem to have missed the key TWO WORDS. "...other than..."
If you ship to anyone NOT an FFL you MUST declare the contents in writing. If you ship it to someone who IS an FFL, you do not have to declare it. This interpretation has been confirmed by the BATFE both in May 2001 and again this past December 2010. Read the underlined portion of page one of the BATFE letter.
Handguns, as defined by 18 U.S.C. ? 921,will be accepted for transportation only via UPS Next Day Air Services, specifically, UPS Next Day Airr Early A.M.r, UPS Next Day Airr, and UPS Next Day Air Saverr. (Note: UPS Express CriticalSM Service is not available for firearms). When you are shipping a package that contains a handgun, you must verbally notify the UPS driver or UPS Customer Center clerk.
Here is my issue with the idea of someone simply lying to UPS and telling them that the pistol being shipped is actually a long gun. If they catch you they will seize your pistol and then it is going to be up to you to figure out how to make them give it back. This is not unlike parking your car in a private parking lot and violating one of their many rules (the small print on the back of the ticket), like taking up two spaces, not parking between the lines, or backing your car into a space when in fact they require you to head-in, ect., ect.. When you come out and find that they have had your car towed away it is now up to you to go down to the impound yard (no doubt in a taxi) and figure out how to get your car back.
I don't think that the money saved by trying to pass off a handgun as a long gun is worth the risks.
I think I have provided the FACTS, fairly, and was clear on my position on WHICH method to use. What method they choose and what motivates their choice is their business. I just want them to have been provided the FACTS and not faulty guidance from incorrect FAQs.
We have enough B.S. legal restrictions on how we own, transport, or use our firearms. We should NOT be making up and complying with fake laws. If we do it too much, some lawmaker may just take notice and amend the law to correspond to what everyone had believed was ALREADY the law. Not good. [:)]
Many of us walk into the GROUND shipping office with a well wrapped brown box marked only with the required addresses. They weigh it and measure it and quote us a price on GROUND shipping. We pay it and walk out. Simple and LEGAL.
Let me state clearly that I never meant that you were suggesting that people lie about their shipments, it was simply a generalization and not specifically aimed at you.
My issue is whether or not that copy of the BATFE letter will be good enough to convince UPS to release any handgun which they have seized if they discover that the shipper has violated their very clearly stated policy of not shipping handguns via ground service. Is telling them that "The BATFE says it is okay to do it so just forget about your own internal policy" enough to do the trick and get your pistol returned? I am thinking that it won't be anything like that easy and getting a misrepresented handgun returned if the shipper catches it will be a very long drawn out process.
However, the probability of it happening is slim IF the shipper pays attention proper wrapping and addressing. Everyone gets the freedom of choice and accepts the risk of their decisions. I have never heard of anyone who uses GROUND and does it properly ever having any problems. [:D]
G-Carrier will transport and deliver firearms as defined by the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, between areas served in the U.S., but only between:
1-Licensed importers; licensed manufacturers; licensed dealers; licensed collectors; law enforcement agencies of the U.S. or any department or agency thereof; and law enforcement agencies of any state or any department, agency or political subdivisions thereof; or
2-Where not prohibited by local, state and federal law, from individuals to licensed importers, licensed manufacturers or licensed dealers (and return of same).
H-Carrier cannot ship or deliver firearms C.O.D.
I-Upon presenting the goods for shipment, the person tendering the shipment to Carrier is required to notify Carrier that the shipment contains a firearm. The outside of the package(s) must not be marked, labeled or otherwise identify that the package(s) contains a firearm.
J-The shipper and recipient must be of legal age as identified by applicable law.
K-The shipper and recipient are required to comply with all applicable government regulations and laws, including those pertaining to labeling. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives can provide assistance.
Wow, looks like Andrew is correct as far as being in compliance with ATF rules. But, if you do not notify UPS or FEDEX about shipping the firearm, rest assured that they can/will deny any insurance claim. That is up to each individual on how they want to handle their package.
Thanks, Andrew, for posting that letter!!!!