Help with Cartridge Identification

brian-usa

Need help identifying some brass and loaded cartridges.

The first cartridge is rimless and headstamped "27 40 P198 XIu1" in a more or less circular pattern. The round soft nose jacketed bullet measures about .356" in diameter, and the overall length is 2.82".

The second cartridge is rimmed and has no headstamp but does have a ridge or ring about half-way between the outside of the primer pocket and edge of the rim. Solid lead bullet measures about .432" in diameter, and the case is slightly bottlenecked with an overall cartridge length of about 2.85".

The third is an empty rimmed, straight walled brass case with markings in four quadrant locations (as in North/South/East/West). "North" location is marked "R", the "south" location is marked "F", the "west" location is marked "1" or perhaps "I", and the "east" location is marked "84". Primer pocket has single hole in the center like modern reloadable cartridges. The empty brass overall length is about 2.1".

hrf

Don't know what first one is, but the soft nose bullet has been placed in a fired case (primer is flattened so it's not a "dud")

Second one is probably .43 Spanish for Remington rolling block.

Third one maybe a .45-70 blank.

brian-usa

Thanks. You're right. I made more measurements and verified that the third one is a 45-70. Don't know why it didn't occur to me to check the dimensions of that cartridge first. Then again, I've yet to own a 45-70.

brian-usa

I'm thinking the first one is a 8x57 or something similar that was necked up to 35 caliber. I've found some other obvious wildcat stuff among this bag of miscellaneous cartridges I've been going through, like a 7x61 S&H necked down to 25 cal. and a 222 Rem. necked down to .17 cal.

jonk

The first def. started life as an 8mm German cartridge, necked up to a 35 wildcat of some sort. I agree, 43 spanish and 45/70 for the other 2.

EDIT: I wasn't thinking of the German metrics... yes, it looks like someone took some 8mm ammo, pulled it down, and necked up to feed their 9X57.

I've shot a fair amount of that ammo as 8mm. A lot of hangfires and duds. Not surprising the bullet is still there.

bpost

quote:Originally posted by jonk
The first def. started life as an 8mm German cartridge, necked up to a 35 wildcat of some sort. I agree, 43 spanish and 45/70 for the other 2.


Not sure about the wildcat on the first one, if you look close you can still see the factory primer stakes, three of them around the primer at 1:00, 5:00 and 9:00...... it looks closer to 10MM, no?

TRAP55

First one, the P198 is the code for Metallwarenfabrik Treuenbritzen G.m.b.H., Werk R?derhof, Germany. Looks like a 9x57, made from a 8x57.
27 is the lot number, and 40 is the year that lot number was loaded at the P198 factory.
The XIu1 would tell you the metallurgy of the case/bullet and type of bullet. I couldn't even begin to guess what that code means.

romer

go to following: german WW11 ordance codes

Cheechako

On the right:

R = Rifle
F = Frankford Arsenal
1 = January
84= 1884

The Cal .45 blanks were usually shorter than the full length case. However, some were also loaded with the 2.1" case. So, yours could be a blank or, more likely, a fired Rifle cartridge. It would have been loaded with a 500 grain bullet. 45-70-500

heavyiron

Hi,

Have been out of town for several weeks and just read this post. This is the typical unsegmented 4-element layout for German military cartridges produced between mid-1930's and 1945.

For case #1 the manufacturer previously mentioned is correct. P198 changed to eey when headstamp codes went alphabetic from alpha-numeric or P code. The headstamps were coded like this to hide the identity and the location of manufacturer.

The element at 3 o'clock identifies the following:

XI = Steel Mill Code = Kl?ckner-Werke A.G., Abteilung Hasper Eisen und Stahlwerke, Hagen-Haspe (at)

u = Plating Firm = Osnabr?cker Kupfer-u. Drahtwerke A.G., Klosterstra?e 29, Osnabr?ck

1 = Steel Analysis = C (carbon) : 0.15 - 0.22 % / Mn (manganese) : 0.4 % / Si (silicon) : 0.12 % / P (phosphorus): 0.03 % / S (sulphur): 0.03 %

Therefore the case should be copper plated steel.

27 is the lot number as previously mentioned. From my references Lot 27 would have been the S.m.K cartridge (Spitzgescho? mit Stahlkern; pointed bullet with steel core [armor-piercing]). The S.m.K. is identified by lot number and color coded with a red primer annulus - just as the one in the photo. Since the primer and annulus both have red color, the original primer is probably still in the case.

Therefore, I think someone just shoved a .356 inch diameter bullet into a previously fired 7.92 mm case for whatever reason. I hate to think someone would actually try to wildcat something with a steel case like this.

Best,

Heavyiron

PS: Forgot to mention - #2 looks like it was made by Union Metallic Cartridge Company (UMCCo). Even though there is not a headstamp, the ring on the base strongly resembles the UMC style.