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WINCHESTER 37 28 GAUGE FAKE
SKIPPY
Member Posts: 3 ✭✭
JUST WHAT MAKES THE 37 28 GAUGE THAT IS CURRENTLY ON GUNBROKER A FAKE? I HAVE CONTACTED THE OWNER AND HE HAS 3 28 GAUGE GUNS. A 37, 37A AND A 370. THEY ALL HAVE THE SAME SIZE BARREL AT THE MUZZLE. SAME SIZE BORE, AND SAME CHAMBER LENGTH. THE BLUEING IS NOT A REBLUE AS HE SAID IT MATCHES THE OTHER ALL ORIGINAL 37S THAT HE HAS AND THE REDLETTERS ALSO ARE BLUED THE SAME WAY. HE HAS CHECKED EXTENSIVELY TO CHECK TO SEE IF IT IS A FAKE. HE HAS NOT FOUND ANY EXPERT TO SEE ANY THING WRONG WITH THE GUN. HE WAS CURIOUS IF ANYBODY HAS ANY SOLID PROOF THAT WINCHESTER DID NOT MAKE A 28 NON REDLETTER. HE ALSO HAS SEEN OTHERS THAT WERE NOT REDLETTERS. I PERSONALLY HAVE SEEN THE GAUGE MARKINGS STAMPED TO DEEP ON ALL OF THE 37S. ALL I AM ASKING IS WHERE IS THE PROOF EITHER WAY. SOLID PROOF WRITTEN DOWN NOT SOMEBODYS OPINION. SKIPPY
Comments
First thing for you... TURN OFF YOUR CAPS LOCK... it is considered to be the same thing as SHOUTING.
Did you read the entire first topic string posted by Dave (only winchesters)? If not, I highly recommend that you go do so. As stated in that topic discussion, there are several things that are wrong with that gun. First, it is the missing Red letters. Second is it has an incorrect chamber length marking (2-3/4" versus the correct 2-7/8"). Third is the fact that it has been reblued. Rebluing a red letter gun will result in it no longer having red letters... they will now be blued. As pointed out earlier, the size and the depth strike of the "28" on the barrel is also very suspicious as well.
As Perry Shooter pointed out, you can either believe those of us that have absolutley no vested interest in that gun, or you can believe what the seller is telling you... but if I were you, I would first consider who has more to gain in this situation.
Between Burt H and Only Winchesters you may have 75-80 years, maybe more, of collecting/studying Winchesters.If either of these man have taken the time to listen to and answer any of your questions on the subject of Winchester firearms,consider yourself "enlightened".I don't think it's possable for anyone (reguardless of study,training or experience)to be correct EVERY time.Without hands-on inspection, it can be tough to judge the authenticity of any object,But those guys know their "Winnies".I have no doubt any info. they gave you about the firearm in question is what they believe to be matter of fact.
Jeff
Have I tried to read and study Winchester shotguns yes. Do all the authors who have written about them agree on everything no, except, the the Md 37 in 28ga has 2 distinct features, a 2 7/8 chamber not a 2 3/4 in chamber. Plus they feel that they were "all Red Letter" guns. Do I own original Winchesters, yes from the 97,11,12,20,21,24,37,42,50. At last count approaching 60. Yes that is a far cry from the 5,000,000 or so pre-64 shotguns made, but it is a good sample!
Is it possible that along about the late 1948-50 time frame that Winchester did a "parts clean-up" and assembled some 28 ga. guns to reduce the parts inventory, well of course it is. I might be able to accept a non-Red Letter receiver before a barrel stamped with 2 3/4 inch chamber. Simply because Winchester didn't change the other 28ga they made to 2 3/4 in chamber until 1953. So did Winchester make new 28ga barrels for the Md 37 in this time frame I don't believe so.
For those of you who don't know, for a number of years, there has been someone in the cental part of our country "remaking" 28ga guns. Not hard to make a barrel out of Chrome Molly, run a roll die down it, attach the barrel lug, refinish the remaining metal, and wood.
I see it every day as I scan the Winchester shotgun auctions, adds, dealer sites, that there are a lot of dealers who sell used guns, and all they can tell you is "what's stamped on the barrel". When I list a Winchester you get the barrel length, the choke as marked and what it measures at the muzzle, on a 97,12 or 42 where the adjusting sleeve is, and if it looks like the original. I'll tell you if it's been reblued or original. I have too many to compare a gun too, and even the best gunsmiths will not refinish/restore a Winchester like it came from the factory. 100% dissasembly and reassembly is just to costly. Even on a Md 37.
All I can say, is the Md 37 in question, it's not an original one. Until someone can come along and find a factory work order from the late 40s to the 1950s showing me that a group was made, especially with a 2 3/4 inch chamber, when everyone who has researched says they are 2 7/8, I will not believe that is an original gun.
Feel free to bid on the gun, contact Stadt, Riffle, Scwhing and let them verify it's original. They will tell you what I just told you.
Regards to All
Dave
For those of you who don't know, for a number of years, there has been someone in the cental part of our country "remaking" 28ga guns. Not hard to make a barrel out of Chrome Molly, run a roll die down it, attach the barrel lug, refinish the remaining metal, and wood.
It seems unfortunate that this discussion may have provided the person producing these 28 ga guns with information on correcting obvious flaws...
i/e: riffles guns are sold before his flyer even gets to my mailbox. only those in his glass ceiling get first dibbs on beauties,(the $$$ club.)
Former Member U.S. Navy Shooting Team
Former NSSA All American
Navy Distinguished Pistol Shot
MO, CT, VA.
I hope i can help you. Winchester did MFG. the M-37, 28 ga. non red letter, on the bottom the non-redletter is smooth and doesn't have winchester on the bottom of the receiver. I have seen at least 2 of these guns and they were all factory original and they were not redone fakes. These are real scarce, so scarce they are almost rare. The older Blue book of gun values metioned the M-37, 28 ga. non red letter, and they mentioned the non red letter being very scarce, and as i recall they gave a % you added for the non red letter 28 ga.
If you find a M-37 with the word winchester on the bottom of the receiver and the letters are not red in color then i would suspect a reblue. Most of the M-37, 28 ga. redletter guns that have been restored, also have new red paint in the word Winchester on the bottom of the receiver.
I am not saying the gun in question has been restored or not, you would need to have an expert on M-37's check it personally.
FAKE OR NOT THAT IS THE QUESTION???????????????
If i was going to go through the trouble to make a fake i would put the correct chamber marking on the barrel, and if i was able to produce a roll marking of that high of a quality, i would have stamped the gauge of the gun better than this gun. The flaws to me seem to be ones that winchester would make not a crook.
It seems to be alot of opinions with no facts either way.
Unless you can provide me with clearer photos of the roll stamping on the left side of the barrel, I still stand by my assessment that it has been reblued.
As for it being a "non-red letter" 28 gauge... there is NO verifiable documentation to support that assertion. There are however, several reference books that state that all Winchester Model 37 28 gauge shotguns were "red" letter guns.
Consider this... if that gun were truly real, (1) it would be ultra rare, and (2) there would be several collectors bidding on it... where are those bidders[?]
Think this through just a bit. Do you personally know the seller? Do you know for a fact that what he has told you about the history of that gun is the truth? In the world of Winchester collecting, if you can not positively prove the configuration (originality) of the gun in question, walk away from it... 99.9% of the time, it is fake[V].