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Illegal?
jhimco
Member Posts: 2,075 ✭✭✭✭✭
Is this illegal? Or is it not yet illegal until you attach it to the lower receiver? If that is illegal to do so- how come it is not listed as such in the auction?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=79133447#DESC
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=79133447#DESC
Comments
That upper is legal on a pistol lower.
And legal on a SBR or MG lower.
CP
Neal
CP, I think Moose is correct. The vertical foregrip is not permitted on a handgun unless registered as an AOW.
Neal
You are correct
I was thinking just remove it.
But as sold in the picture you and Moose are right.
I stand corrected.
Thank you.
CP
CP, I think Moose is correct. The vertical foregrip is not permitted on a handgun unless registered as an AOW.
There it is again! (I'm not arguing, but am trying to find where people have gotten this idea.)
Where in the law does it say that a "vertical foregrip" is not permitted on a handgun?
I've searched, but can find no law, or ATF "ruling" (which can have the force of law until/unless a court rules otherwise) about "vertical foregrips" on pistols.
Can you please show me the references you are using to draw this conclusion about the legality of "vertical foregrips" on pistols?
Regarding the legality of that upper receiver: Much of the law about NFA weapons include the phrase "or parts readily assembled into" such-and-such -- I'm not sure if it extends to SBRs (speak with a lawyer for specific legal advice), but having that upper together with a non-SBR lower might constitute "possession" of a SBR.
But why would they not tell you this in the description? I just found out yesterday that it is illegal. Somebody could get in trouble be selling a product like this to a person without telling them the restrictions. There seems to be a lot of confusion on this subject.
Please re-read the earlier replies. It is NOT "illegal" itself; it COULD make a firearm (the lower receiver on the AR is the firearm) illegal if not installed on the PROPER lower. (This could also vary by state.)
The seller is NOT likely to "get in trouble" for selling the item; the person BUYING it would be in trouble. The seller SHOULD include in his auction description the statement "ALL NFA RULES APPLY" -- which I did not see in the description -- to "cover his *" from a possible civil suit if someone misused it.
quote:Originally posted by nmyers
CP, I think Moose is correct. The vertical foregrip is not permitted on a handgun unless registered as an AOW.
There it is again! (I'm not arguing, but am trying to find where people have gotten this idea.)
Where in the law does it say that a "vertical foregrip" is not permitted on a handgun?
I've searched, but can find no law, or ATF "ruling" (which can have the force of law until/unless a court rules otherwise) about "vertical foregrips" on pistols.
Can you please show me the references you are using to draw this conclusion about the legality of "vertical foregrips" on pistols?
Regarding the legality of that upper receiver: Much of the law about NFA weapons include the phrase "or parts readily assembled into" such-and-such -- I'm not sure if it extends to SBRs (speak with a lawyer for specific legal advice), but having that upper together with a non-SBR lower might constitute "possession" of a SBR.
You are partially right. I don't think anywhere that it specifically says it is an AOW, however the ATF describes a handgun to be one that is designed to be fired with one hand. The ATF claims that because it has two grips, it is designed to be held by two hands and therfore falls into the 'catch-all' of NFA which is the AOW. I have looked for that information before, but never been able to find it. Perhaps if someone is willing to get caught with one of these the ATF will point out the law they are charging you with breaking. Then you could come back here and tell us all where they found it.[:D]
Are you a socialist?
CP
are you asking me if im a socialist?
Nope
Aimed at jhimco
CP
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives
Washington, DC 20226
Adding a Vertical Fore Grip to a Handgun
"Handgun" is defined under Federal law to mean, in part, a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.. Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. ? 921(a)(29).
Under an implementing regulation of the National Firearms Act (NFA), 27 C.F.R. ? 479.11, "pistol" is defined as a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).
The NFA further defines the term "any other weapon" (AOW) as any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition. 26 U.S.C. ? 5845(e).
ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are "making" a firearm requiring registration with ATF's NFA Branch. Making an unregistered "AOW" is punishable by a fine and 10 years' imprisonment. Additionally, possession of an unregistered "AOW" is also punishable by fine and 10 years' imprisonment.
To lawfully add a vertical fore grip to a handgun, a person must make an appropriate application on ATF Form 1, "Application to Make and Register a Firearm." The applicant must submit the completed form, along with a fingerprint card bearing the applicant's fingerprints; a photograph; and $200.00. The application will be reviewed by the NFA Branch. If the applicant is not prohibited from possessing a firearm under Federal, State, or local law, and possession of an "AOW" is not prohibited in the applicant's State of residence, the form will be approved. Only then may the person add a vertical fore grip to the designated handgun.
A person may also send the handgun to a person licensed to manufacture NFA weapons. The manufacturer will install the fore grip on the firearm and register the firearm on an ATF Form 2. The manufacturer can then transfer the firearm back to the individual on an ATF Form 4, which results in a $5.00 transfer tax. If the manufacturer is out of State, the NFA Branch will need a clarification letter submitted with the ATF Form 4 so that the NFA Branch Examiner will know the circumstances of the transfer. Questions can be directed to the NFA Branch or the Firearms Technology Branch.