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1897 Winchester Trench shotgun

woolygumswoolygums Member Posts: 5 ✭✭
edited December 2008 in Ask the Experts
My second post here [:D]Recently acquired. Would like info. Serial number 681xxx E - My first post is in "Want Ads," looking for good, period, heat shield to replace the one on this gun.

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11897trench6Medium.jpg

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Stock was refinished. Would like to remove this finish (carefully) and stain/finish to match forearm.
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Comments

  • nmyersnmyers Member Posts: 16,892 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bill, what is your question?

    Are you asking if this is a REAL Winchester 1897 trench shotgun?

    Neal
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hmmm...

    Looking at the pictures gives me a different impresssion of the gun than the description you gave in your email.

    The serial number tells me that it was manufactured in 1917, and it is right in the middle of a large batch of Trench Guns that I have recorded in my survey.

    That said, I see a few issues with your gun Trench Gun.

    (1) The butt stock is not original to the gun (it is from a later production gun). The butt stock should be fitted with a checkered steel butt plate (with the widows peak at the top). I should have referred to Joe Poyer's fine book first[:I]. As it turns out, the butt stock and butt plate on this gun are correct for a WW I issue Trench Gun. The finish on it however, has been redone.

    (2) The heat shield is the type used on the WW II issue Trench Guns.

    My personal opinion is that your gun was originally a WW I issue Trench Gun, but it had missing or damaged parts that were replaced by a previous owner, and that person either did not know what the correct parts were, or was not concerned about putting it back together correctly.

    Please keep in mind that the website you used to come up with the DOM was based on George Madis' flawed publications, and it is not accurate.

    WACA Historian & Life Member

  • givettegivette Member Posts: 10,886
    edited November -1
    'gums:

    Here's some links to aftermarket parts..as your firearm is mixed parts already, it's your call if you want to make the firearm correct in configuration. The wood on the replacement stock and the metal heat shield will stick out like a sore thumb [be way off in condition to the rest of the rifle]. Good Luck! Joe (Here's the links):
    http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp?chrProductSKU=247870&chrSuperSKU=&MC=
    http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp?chrProductSKU=813820&chrSuperSKU=&MC=
  • woolygumswoolygums Member Posts: 5 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by givette
    'gums:

    Here's some links to aftermarket parts..as your firearm is mixed parts already, it's your call if you want to make the firearm correct in configuration. The wood on the replacement stock and the metal heat shield will stick out like a sore thumb [be way off in condition to the rest of the rifle]. Good Luck! Joe


    quote:Originally posted by givette
    'gums:

    Here's some links to aftermarket parts..as your firearm is mixed parts already, it's your call if you want to make the firearm correct in configuration. The wood on the replacement stock and the metal heat shield will stick out like a sore thumb [be way off in condition to the rest of the rifle]. Good Luck! Joe


    Bert, Nmeyer and Givette, I DO want to make this correct! I am not familiar enough with the parts needed to make it so. I see the links Joe was so kind enough to post. If I buy the stock, does it also have the correct butt plate?

    I am also good to buy the heat shield in the link. However I may have the right bayonet lug already. I can post some pictures of the other side and you please tell me. If I have it already, wouldn't I be better off to replace only my heat shield?? And is the one in the link with the "29 holes" and "six rows" correct for a WW1 1897?

    Is there any chance that old replacement parts could be found? I am more interested in authenticity than cost. I like the old, slightly worn look. An old shotgun should look old, but well-cared-for.


    BTW this is what the seller said: "This is a good example of a scarce WW1 Winchester Model 1897 solid frame trench shotgun. The left side of the barrel is correctly marked with the two line Winchester barrel markings followed by "12 ga and CYL." The top of the barrel and receiver are marked with the circled "WP" Winchester proof. The handguard/bayonet adapter WW1 Style marked with the one-line patent dates and comes with a bead front sight. The side of the slide bar is marked "Model 1897/--WINCHESTER---/TRADE MARK REG. IN U.S. PATENT OFFICE". The stock has a low comb WW1 version that has had a sling swivel correctly installed and the forearm has 18 grooves. The butt plate is an original checkered hard rubber with "WINCHESTER / REPEATING / ARMS CO" in the center. The shotgun correctly lacks "U.S." and the Ordnance property marks. The right side of the buttstock is stamped "SPP / 201". Experts estimate only approximately 20% of all WW1 Winchester trench shotguns were hand-stamped with the "U.S./ordnance bomb" insignia on the right side of the receiver. Complete with brown leather sling and bayonet with scabbard. The bayonet is marked "1917" over a circled "W" and an "eagle J-9" proof followed by a "Flaming ordnance bomb x/U.S."


    Seller did disclose in "condition" that the heat shield was a replacement, but that it was correct to the gun.
  • givettegivette Member Posts: 10,886
    edited November -1
    Givette again. Just read your post above. The gun did not leave Winchester in the configuration you bought it. You can search for period parts, but it's a longshot. If you succeed, try and look for a heat-shield/bayo lug together as an assembled unit. Re riveted heat shield will be noticeable.

    I'm not absolutely certain, but the stock I listed in the link in my original response is the correct "metal buttplate with widow's peak". Widow's peak is the "point" the top of the buttplate comes to, folded over the top of the stock for about 1/4in.

    Heat shield in my link is correct for WWI. More rows of holes than the heat-shield you have (WWII heat shield). Best, Joe
  • woolygumswoolygums Member Posts: 5 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bert and Joe,

    Thanks again for the input. Seems the stock is ok, but I do want to refinish it to better match the fore stock. Still a question on the bayonet lug and heat shield.

    As you can see from my pictures below the bayonet lug I have shows patent markings of "Jan 15 & Mar 19, 1918" Does this bayonet lug look like the original? Possibly one that could have come with the gun?

    Does the replacement have the same patent markings? Since it appears a "long shot" that I may find a period replacement, I could buy the replacement with the correct configuration for WW1 that Joe provided. I'd prefer to buy only the heat shield and rivet or weld or (use whatever attachment method the original had) to my period bayonet lug.

    If I can't get this heat shield separately, and the new bayonet lug does not have the proper markings (even if it does, I'd really prefer to keep the old one), un-rivet the new heat shield, age it a little bit where it is more in keeping with the rest of the gun, and attach it to my present bayonet lug.

    Your kind assistance is sought in helping me make this old warrior as much as possible, an authentic period piece.

    Thanks in advance
    Bill M
    Atlanta GA

    My goal is to make this gun look as much like it did in WW1.
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