H&R MK-II .32

ccn

The following is info on a H & R that I have recently purchased. This revolver was purchased from the estate of a WWII OSS vetern. I have tried to pin down the date of mfg and the model (MK II) without sucess. Any guidence will be greatly appreaciated.

Thanks

Model and Sn. Number: MK II / 248--

Frame Size: Large

Barrel Length And Shape: 4" / Round

Caliber And Cylinder Capacity: .32 S&W CTGE / 6

Finish: Blued

Sights: Fixed

Markings:
- Top Of Barrel: Harrington & Richardson Arms Co./Worcester, Mass. U. S. A., MK-II (on flat next to rear sight)
- Left Side Of Barrel: 32 S&W CTGE

Serial Number and Location:
- Front Of Grip Strap: 248--
- Rear Of Cylinder: 8--
- Left Side Of Grip Strap Under Grips: 248--

Automatic Cylinder Stop: Single rotation stop not doubled knubed

Other Features And Comments: On the front side of the grip strap, in front of the serial number is "P M.P".

32 Magnum

The piece you purchased is in actuality an H&R "Bobby" which was one of about 23,000+ manufactured for the London Metropolitan Police during WW2. The MKII stamping on top of the barrel indicates the .32 S&W caliber. The 'M.P.' stamping on the front of the grip strap is the London Metropolitan Police property markings (not, as claimed a U.S. Gov't inspector's initials). The 'P' stamping is the factory firing proof mark required for lend lease. The O.S.S. piece the seller mentioned is the small frame "Premier" model. That one was chambered, also in .32 S&W, was a five shot and very few, less than 2000 were sold to the U.S. Gov't during WW2. This piece was mis-described from the first listing on Gun Broker several months ago.
Jim Hauff (Contributing Editor for H&R Firearms, S. Fjestad's "Blue Book of Gun Values", long term collector of H&R Firearms and proud owner of several H&R "Bobbies"

ccn

Jim, Thanks for the reply. I am familiar with the British purchase of H&R Bobby's during WWII. There are some inconsistencies with the gun I own and the information that I have researched. First of all the H&R factory shipping records indicate that there were 23,782 Bobby's shipped to the British Purchasing Commission. Serial numbered 1 thru 23782 (Charles Pate book "US Hand Guns of WWII"). The revolver that is in my possession is serial numbered 248--. Mr. Pate also states that "a few were sent to different destinations, most were sent to the Chief of Constabulary". Let's assume that the London Metropolitan Police received the H&R from the CoC. Which department would apply the property markings? Also, Brit's are very proud of their markings (crowns, V's, Arm Dexter, etc.) M.P. seems a little bland to me. Has M.P. been verified as the mark for LMP? We know that there was an H&R inspector with the initials M.P.; do we know anything about him? There is an H&R WWII ad, also in Mr.Pates book page 114, that states that "Britain has selected H&R as manufactures of this new weapon, made to Britain's own rigid specifications" and "we are proud to be able to offer this fine revolver to the shooters in America". Could it be possible that the MK-II was a model for the US market or were all No. 15 Bobby's marked with MK-II (my revolver is not marked "No. 15")? Thanks again for the guidance, Frank

32 Magnum

Frank,
From Bill Goforth's research the OSS pistol was the Premier Model (small frame, auto ejecting, 5 shot .32S&W and no special markings were applied - which makes sense since they were intended as clandestine pocket pieces. Also, the MKII and M.P. markings appear to have been added in England. I questioned the markings on the one that I have (s/n 22497) when I first got it about 10 years ago, and the information provided to me by several sources corresponds with what you have found. I believe Bill has done further research and confirmed that 1 thru 23782 were shipped between 1940-42 and all in .32 S&W Long caliber (appears Bill's info has come from the same sources you quote)and that total production in this serial number series may have extended as high as 25,000. Exact number shipped after that first period (if any) is unknown.
There are no other British military type markings, nor National proof house stamps on mine either. I do have several H&R's that were sent to England: one is a 37mm/1 9/16" flare/tear gas gun with shoulder stock, covered with Broad Arrow and unit markings that date from WW1 and a commercial knife model sold by W. R. Pape / Newcastle upon Tyne, that is fully marked with National proof marks, barrel and each cylinder flute, so I have seen pieces marked.
All the characteristics of your piece are in accordance with mine and mine fits into the serial number range - so my assumption is that yours is also a "Bobbie" perhaps from a later shipment that is not as yet documented. If you look closely, the MKII and M.P. stamps are entirely different than any other die set "fonts" that I have seen on any of the other 400+ H&Rs that I have owned nor the several hundred other that I have inspected.
The other two "Bobbies" that I have are commercial models, one in .32 S&W L and one in .38 S&W - they are in a separate s/n series (6601 and 6942 respectively). Neither of these has the British MKII designation nor model number stampings and the serial numbers are stamped on the front grip strap as with the M.P. Bobbie.
Perhaps Bill will chime in on this and provide a bit more guidance.

I am curious to find a reference source for the "H&R Inspector" with the M.P. initials? I can't find anything about this person.

b.goforth

i have already responded to an e-mail from ccn about his revolver. my biggest concern about these revolvers are the lack of any british proof marks what so ever. since the london metro police were not a military organization i would not expect government ownership markings. what bothers me most is the lack of the 1950's era london or birmingham proof marks that were applied to all british owned firarms that were released during the late 1950's and early 1960's.

i personally feel that none of the london metro police models that actually were recieved by them have been seen yet and are either destroyed or still over there. regardless of serial number i believe those revolvers with these markings in the U.S. are part of the over run or were not accepted for shipment to england. on the other hand i have been wrong before.

as of right now the only H&R's that can be associated with the OSS are those 32 caliber small frame premier models that charles pate found listed in the records of springfield arsenal. one of these is listed as being returned to springfield from "operation eagle", which i found was an aborted mission to drop "Korean Americans" into korea if the U.S. had to invade the japanese homeland. snother of these premiers was also reurned to springfield by a Lt. Fisher. so far i have not found any information on a Lt. Fisher. i also have some second hand information that some of these premier models were issued to female couriers while traveling at home and abroad, a letter from the founder of numrich arms to charles pate and mentioned briefly in numrich arms catalog 20th edition page 300.

i recieved some very good information from the british royal mueseum on iver johnson handguns in their collection and will be contacting them this year about any H&R's they may have.
bill

ccn

The most exciting part of collecting is the research; I would like thank both Bill and Jim for their input. This is the first time that I have utilized this forum and I am very impressed with the feed-back! The gun was purchased from the estate of a well documented OSS veteran (OSS, Detachment 101). I have a few lingering questions, I don??t know if they can be answered, but here goes;
,X Could this have been issued to him from the purchase of the over-run of the Bobby??s by the OSS (If there was a purchase)?
,X Were any of the Bobby??s issued to the SOE?
,X Who was the inspector ??M.P.?"? Was he stationed in the H&R factory?
,X Has anyone seen the markings on an issued British Bobby (Metropolitan Police)?
Whatever, the true history of the revolver maybe, it??s a fine gun, in great shape. I??m happy to have it!

Thanks again for the GREAT information, Frank

32 Magnum

CCN - thanks for asking this interesting question.
Bill G. - thanks for the update and opinions on this.
Jim Hauff