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Mannlicher Schoenauer 1952
dfletcher
Member Posts: 8,162 ✭✭✭
I'm in the process of buying a Mannlicher Schoenauer Model 1952 in 257 Roberts. The rifle is 100% - no nicks, rub marks or a scratch anywhere. The stock is not full length. Slightly raised cheekpiece stock, I shoot lefty and like it because it doesn't disrupt the top line of the stock. Coin toss as to whether it's been fired. My knowledge of these is a bit limited.
The rifle is out of state, I'd like to use my C & R license. Without having the serial number, does anyone know dates of manufacture for these rifles? I know there is a later MS Model 1956, then a 1961. Did they stop making the 1952 in 1956, 1960 or '61? Also, I'm aware Stoeger imported these and after a certain date drilled & tapped the rear bridge. This rifle is not drilled & tapped. It has a double set trigger set up.
I've always wanted a 257 Roberts, is this an unusual chambering for the MS 1952?
Lastly, I know the split bridge is a pain to set up for a scope. I see various types of aftermarket mounts such as G & H, Jaeger (mounted years back I presume) and the "Redfield Style" version of the MS mount, NECG also. I have G & H and Jaeger mounts on other rifles. Would I be committing a sin against all the gun world if I had this rifle drilled & tapped for a scope mount such as mentioned above?
Side question - I reload for about 80 calibers. It seems 257 brass is hard to find. Can it be fashioned from anything else such as 6mm Remington, 220 Swift, 7 or 8mm Mauser?
The rifle is out of state, I'd like to use my C & R license. Without having the serial number, does anyone know dates of manufacture for these rifles? I know there is a later MS Model 1956, then a 1961. Did they stop making the 1952 in 1956, 1960 or '61? Also, I'm aware Stoeger imported these and after a certain date drilled & tapped the rear bridge. This rifle is not drilled & tapped. It has a double set trigger set up.
I've always wanted a 257 Roberts, is this an unusual chambering for the MS 1952?
Lastly, I know the split bridge is a pain to set up for a scope. I see various types of aftermarket mounts such as G & H, Jaeger (mounted years back I presume) and the "Redfield Style" version of the MS mount, NECG also. I have G & H and Jaeger mounts on other rifles. Would I be committing a sin against all the gun world if I had this rifle drilled & tapped for a scope mount such as mentioned above?
Side question - I reload for about 80 calibers. It seems 257 brass is hard to find. Can it be fashioned from anything else such as 6mm Remington, 220 Swift, 7 or 8mm Mauser?
Comments
Never owned a 257. But I believe that all Ned Roberts did, was to neck down a 7mm Mauser. To 257 caliber. Not sure if he shortened it or not?
The original wildcat .25 Roberts was necked down, shortened, and the shoulder angle reduced from 7mm brass. Guns made by Neidner.
The next generation .25 Roberts wildcat was produced by G&H who sloped out the shoulder without reducing the length and headspace dimension but a little.
The commercial .257 Remington Roberts was a straight neckdown of 7mm within a degree or two on shoulder angle.
You cannot shoot .257 Remington Roberts in a wildcat .25 Roberts of either type.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.257_Roberts
If my eyes were young enough to shoot iron sights, I might shoot it that way but that ship has sailed so I'd not hesitate to put a scope on it since I would, like you, want to shoot and be able to hit something with it. There is a guy on the auction side that makes and sells a copy of the Redfield mount. My rifles have Williams, Pachmayr, Redfield, G & H, and Leupold Adjusto-Mounts on them.
From the cartridge drawings in reloading manuals, I would think .257 could be made easily from 7x57 or 6mm Remington brass. The problem is that brass is not any more easily found than .257.
The .257 chambering does appear to be a bit unusual in the Mannlicher Schoenauer. A quick check of my collection of Stoeger's catalogs shows it listed in 1952 but not in 1961
I have a half dozen or so Mannlicher Schoenauers. As has been said, they do have a year of manufacture on them. On the left side of the barrel, over the front of the chamber, just above the stock line are a couple of proof marks and a 2-number date. That number is also near the foreward edge of the receiver in line with the barrel date. My model 1950 has the number 52 (1952), my 1952 has 53. The newest one I have (a model MCA) has the date 66 on it. I believe there was some carry-over, ie, some model 1952's may be dated 56 but I doubt if they were made much beyond that. HOWEVER, there was a model GK which was made well into the 1960's and has the 1950/1952 stock and looks the same as a 1952 except for the "Model GK" on the receiver ring and a tang safety. In any case, ask your seller to look at those areas on the rifle for the numbers and that will tell you whether it's C&R eligible.
If my eyes were young enough to shoot iron sights, I might shoot it that way but that ship has sailed so I'd not hesitate to put a scope on it since I would, like you, want to shoot and be able to hit something with it. There is a guy on the auction side that makes and sells a copy of the Redfield mount. My rifles have Williams, Pachmayr, Redfield, G & H, and Leupold Adjusto-Mounts on them.
From the cartridge drawings in reloading manuals, I would think .257 could be made easily from 7x57 or 6mm Remington brass. The problem is that brass is not any more easily found than .257.
The .257 chambering does appear to be a bit unusual in the Mannlicher Schoenauer. A quick check of my collection of Stoeger's catalogs shows it listed in 1952 but not in 1961
Thank you for the information. The folks I'm dealing with a very "by the book" and I don't want them to think I'm wrong, or prodding them to cut corners.
I have about 200 6mm Remington cases and Grafs has 7X57, so I think I'm OK getting started. I'll still search for the 257.
I've contacted the fellow on the auction side who makes the Redfield style and he says he'll have some sets posted for sale soon.
I've been looking at the MS rifles for a long time, something always seemed to get in the way of picking one up. Am glad to finally get one, especially in the 257 Roberts. My nearly 60 year old eyes are still sharp as heck, my shooting shoulder - not so much.
I have a Ruger 77 and a Browning A-Bolt chambered for the .257 Roberts cartridge so, when you get your rifle, if I can offer any reloading advice, I'd be glad to help. A complaint about the .257 Roberts is that many of the rifles were short actions (my A-Bolt is a short action) and the bullets had to be seated deep into the case to get a cartridge length of 2.80". If my Mannlicher Schoenauers in .308 and 6.5x54 are examples, I don't think you will have that problem. The magazines on those two would take a cartridge of 3.06" length. (That looks like I meant .30/06 length: I didn't!)
Congratulations on a really nice find! Quite rare in that caliber I believe. I would use a side mount by Jaeger or G&H, single or double lever. I have a single lever Jaeger on my Model 1952 and couldn't be more pleased. It is so easy to remove or reattach the scope and the zero holds extremely well. The mount just looks right on thse rifles.Please post some pictures when you get your new gun. I'm certain that it qualifies as a C&R firearm.
I have a Jaeger single lever on a Winchester 43 Deluxe in 218 Bee and it works great. Teach those Larue folks a thing or two about "return to zero" -[;)]
From what I've read the 257 Roberts was offered in 1952 only, or in the 1952 model only, not quite sure. The problem I'm going to run into is that Cabelas is persnickity as heck when it comes to C & R status. Although I'll be in Oregon with my C & R FFL in hand, my experience is that unless they know 100% it's C & R eligible they won't let me take it, they'll default to no. I've noticed some gun stores are a bit sensitive, or suspicious, that someone is trying to talk them into doing something shady when C & R holders try to use their paperto buy across state lines, skip a state wait period. My being in CA doesn't help matters.
Using the logic "the Model 1952 was made from 1952 to 1960 and replaced by the 1961 MCA" doesn't quite make it unless the Blue Book specifically lists it that way, or there are factory date stampings on receiver and barrel that they can look up and determine date.
It's good to hear that doing a proper mounting isn't a crime. I plan on putting a period correct German scope on it, if that's not possible I have a few older "TV" screen Redfields that will do nicely.
quote:Originally posted by TWalker
Congratulations on a really nice find! Quite rare in that caliber I believe. I would use a side mount by Jaeger or G&H, single or double lever. I have a single lever Jaeger on my Model 1952 and couldn't be more pleased. It is so easy to remove or reattach the scope and the zero holds extremely well. The mount just looks right on thse rifles.Please post some pictures when you get your new gun. I'm certain that it qualifies as a C&R firearm.
I have a Jaeger single lever on a Winchester 43 Deluxe in 218 Bee and it works great. Teach those Larue folks a thing or two about "return to zero" -[;)]
From what I've read the 257 Roberts was offered in 1952 only, or in the 1952 model only, not quite sure. The problem I'm going to run into is that Cabelas is persnickity as heck when it comes to C & R status. Although I'll be in Oregon with my C & R FFL in hand, my experience is that unless they know 100% it's C & R eligible they won't let me take it, they'll default to no. I've noticed some gun stores are a bit sensitive, or suspicious, that someone is trying to talk them into doing something shady when C & R holders try to use their paperto buy across state lines, skip a state wait period. My being in CA doesn't help matters.
Using the logic "the Model 1952 was made from 1952 to 1960 and replaced by the 1961 MCA" doesn't quite make it unless the Blue Book specifically lists it that way, or there are factory date stampings on receiver and barrel that they can look up and determine date.
It's good to hear that doing a proper mounting isn't a crime. I plan on putting a period correct German scope on it, if that's not possible I have a few older "TV" screen Redfields that will do nicely.
Obviously it's going to be your rifle. And you can do what you want to it. But my WAG, is D & T'ing. A Model 1952, 100%, M/S in 257 Roberts. Is going to reduce value by 50%, at least. Not a crime, but you're going to have a lot of M/S collectors, crying in their beer. And grinding their teeth.
I have a MS1950 in 257R rifle which has the stripper clip guides. They grinded them off in the MS1952. I found that the leade is very long in my MS 1950 and had to seat my Nosler 115 BTs about 0.150 inches out to be about 0.010" off touching the rifling. The rifle has a set trigger too which really helps for accurate shooting. Also found that the new cases' headspace shortened after each shot so I had to run them through a 7mm Mauser die and then through a 257R FL die to get a bump at the base of the neck. This make for a snug chamber fit. From what I could tell it was that MS heavy firing pin which caused the shortening of the cases' headspace. The rifle also came with a Leupold Adjusto mount so it was already butchered.
Please Don't Butcher Your MS1952.