In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.
Options
Would gunpowder go off in a vacuum, underwater pt2
beantownshootah
Member Posts: 12,776 ✭✭✭
I'm really only continuing this from the last thread because I got locked out in the middle of composing a response and didn't want it to go to waste!
quote:Originally posted by Txs
quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
There is a well-known Glock modification that permits this.All firearms can be fired underwater, Glock just talks about this as if it's some unique capability. Typical of their marketing.
Believe me, I am no Glock fan. I just brought this up as a well-known example.
http://splodetv.com/firing-glock-underwater
Glock actually recommends that their standard guns NOT be fired underwater, because doing so can be highly dangerous.
It isn't entirely true that "any" gun can fire underwater. While many guns can get away with this ONCE, some of them can't even fire ONE round underwater.
The reason is that water in the action (for example within the firing pin channel) can slow things down to the point where you don't get a reliable firing pin strike on the primer.
This actually includes unmodified Glocks. . .even these won't reliably fire underwater.
Obviously, many guns aren't water resistant, especially not salt-water resistant, and they aren't necessarily easy to detail strip or clean after getting wet. So you can ruin certain guns by trying this.
There are other reasons why firing guns underwater isn't necessarily a good idea: the gun can explode due to higher pressures, endangering the shooter, and destroying the gun; shock waves from the firing can cause internal injury, etc.
IMO, while its fun to TALK about this, actually DOING it is something best left to the movies, and experts in emergency circumstances.
quote:Originally posted by Txs
quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
There is a well-known Glock modification that permits this.All firearms can be fired underwater, Glock just talks about this as if it's some unique capability. Typical of their marketing.
Believe me, I am no Glock fan. I just brought this up as a well-known example.
http://splodetv.com/firing-glock-underwater
Glock actually recommends that their standard guns NOT be fired underwater, because doing so can be highly dangerous.
It isn't entirely true that "any" gun can fire underwater. While many guns can get away with this ONCE, some of them can't even fire ONE round underwater.
The reason is that water in the action (for example within the firing pin channel) can slow things down to the point where you don't get a reliable firing pin strike on the primer.
This actually includes unmodified Glocks. . .even these won't reliably fire underwater.
Obviously, many guns aren't water resistant, especially not salt-water resistant, and they aren't necessarily easy to detail strip or clean after getting wet. So you can ruin certain guns by trying this.
There are other reasons why firing guns underwater isn't necessarily a good idea: the gun can explode due to higher pressures, endangering the shooter, and destroying the gun; shock waves from the firing can cause internal injury, etc.
IMO, while its fun to TALK about this, actually DOING it is something best left to the movies, and experts in emergency circumstances.
Comments
Think firing with a plugged barrel.
And, to answer your question, there's enough airspace [oxygen] in the case to cause ignition. Happens every time you pull the trigger. In a true vacuum....no In a case contaminated with water seepage....no.
The bad stuff happens when the bullet tries to go down the barrel, and finds out it can't.
Best, Joe
EDIT:
Ice: Read your post below. Thanks for the heads-up. I had an old .303 S.M.L.E and at the time was able to buy Brit MILSURP ammo that was loaded with original nitro sticks (guncotton-or cordite). The modern granules of compressed smokeless powder uses the same formulae as the old cordite/axite? I would have to assume that the formulae applies to both. Thanks, Joe
http://www.dlsports.com/underwater_handgun_shooting.html
In short, you can get away with it in a .45 but not a .40.
Tried at the Mythbuster TV level of scientific rigor, too.
Post below is an oversimplification, and is not recommended by the author.
Think firing with a plugged barrel.
And, to answer your question, there's enough airspace [oxygen] in the case to cause ignition. Happens every time you pull the trigger. In a true vacuum....no In a case contaminated with water seepage....no.
The bad stuff happens when the bullet tries to go down the barrel, and finds out it can't.
Best, Joe
Joe, just as an FYI, I posted the chemical formula for Nitric Acid (90% of the mixture for Gun Powder (smokeless)) on the other thread. Because every molecule (of gun cotton) contains EIGHT oxygen atoms, gun powder is capable of burning in a vacuum.
Nitric Acid is HNO3
Nitrated gun cotton is C6H702(NO3)2 which indicates each molecule of "powder" contains EIGHT oxygen atoms.
PS - I found this bit of info on the net -
quote:
The gaseous mixture obtained by burning guncotton in a vacuum vessel contains STEAM, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, nitrogen, nitric oxide, and methane . When slowly heated in a vacuum vessel until ignition takes place, some nitrogen dioxide, NO2, is also produced .
http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/GUI_HAN/GUNCOTTON.html
Additional info: (one of the reasons I hang here is to learn new info)
Smokeless propellant components
The propellant formulations may contain various energetic and auxiliary components:
Propellants:
Nitrocellulose, an energetic component of most smokeless propellants
Nitroglycerin, an energetic component of double-base and triple-base formulations
Nitroguanidine, a component of triple-base formulations
Plasticizers, to make the grains less brittle
Dibutyl phthalate
Polyester adipate
Binders, to hold the grain shape
Rosin
Ethyl acetate
Stabilizers, to prevent or slow down self-decomposition
Diphenylamine
2-nitrodiphenylamine
4-nitrodiphenylamine
N-nitrosodiphenylamine
N-methyl-p-nitroaniline
Decoppering additives, to hinder the buildup of copper residues from the gun barrel rifling
Tin metal and compounds, eg. tin dioxide
Bismuth metal and compounds, eg. bismuth trioxide, bismuth subcarbonate, bismuth nitrate, bismuth antimonide; the bismuth compounds are favored as copper dissolves in molten bismuth, forming brittle and easily removable alloy
Lead foil and lead compounds, phased out due to toxicity
Flash reducers, to reduce the brightness of the muzzle flash
Potassium nitrate
Potassium sulfate (both have a disadvantage - production of smoke)
Wear reduction additives, to lower the wear of the gun barrel liners [1]
Wax
Talc
Titanium dioxide
Polyurethane jackets over the powder bags, in large guns
Other additives
Graphite, a lubricant to cover the grains and prevent them from sticking together, and to dissipate static electricity
Calcium carbonate, to neutralize acidic decomposition products
The properties of the propellant are greatly influenced by the size and shape of its grains. The surface of the grains influences the speed of burning, and the shape influences the surface and its change during burning. By selection of the grain shape it is possible to influence the pressure vs time curve as the propellant burns. Nitrocellulose Nitrocellulose Nitrocellulose (also: cellulose nitrate, flash paper) is a highly flammable compound formed by nitrating cellulose through, for example, exposure to nitric acid or another powerful nitrating agent. ... Nitroglycerin, also known as nitroglycerine, trinitroglycerin, and glyceryl trinitrate, is a chemical compound. ... Nitroguanidine (2-Nitroguanidine, picrite, CH4N4O2, H2NC(NH)NHNO2) is a chemical compound. ... Plasticizers are additives that soften the materials (usually a plastic or a concrete mix) they are added to. ... Dibutyl phthalate is a chemical used in some nail polishes. ... A binder is a material used to bind together two or more other materials in mixtures. ... A 20 g cake of amber violin bow rosin. ... Ethyl acetate is the organic compound with the formula CH3CH2OC(O)CH3. ... Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. ... Diphenyl amine has been used for scald control on apples in the US, it is a fungicide. ... 2-nitrodiphenylamine, also called NDPA, 2-NDPA, 2NO2DPA, Sudan Yellow 1339, C.I. 10335, CI 10335, phenyl 2-nitrophenylamine, 2-nitro-N-phenylaniline, or N-phenyl-o-nitroaniline, is an organic chemical, a nitrated aromatic amine, a derivate of diphenylamine. ... Decoppering is the act of removing copper and it is most commonly used in the context of the removal of copper residues from the rifling of gun barrels. ... General Name, Symbol, Number tin, Sn, 50 Chemical series poor metals Group, Period, Block 14, 5, p Appearance silvery lustrous gray Atomic mass 118. ... Tin dioxide, SnO2, also stannic oxide, is an oxide of tin, with tin in oxidation state +4. ... General Name, Symbol, Number bismuth, Bi, 83 Chemical series poor metals Group, Period, Block 15, 6, p Appearance lustrous reddish white Atomic mass 208. ... Flash point non-flammable Supplementary data page Structure and properties n, I?r, etc. ... General Name, Symbol, Number lead, Pb, 82 Chemical series poor metals Group, Period, Block 14, 6, p Appearance bluish white Atomic mass 207. ... Muzzle flash is a term used to describe the visible light emited by superheated gases and flame produced by the burning gunpowder when a firearm is discharged. ... R-phrases S-phrases Supplementary data page Structure and properties n, I?r, etc. ... Potassium sulfate (K2SO4) (also known as potash of sulfur) is a non-flammable white crystalline salt which is soluble in water. ... Wax has traditionally referred to a substance that is secreted by bees (beeswax) and used by them in constructing their honeycombs. ... Talc block Talcum Powder Talc is a mineral composed of hydrated magnesium silicate with the chemical formula H2Mg3(SiO3)4 or Mg3Si4O10(OH)2. ... Titanium dioxide, also known as titanium(IV) oxide or titania, is the naturally occurring oxide of titanium, chemical formula TiO2. ... A polyurethane is any polymer consisting of a chain of organic units joined by urethane links. ... Graphite (named by Abraham Gottlob Werner in 1789 from the Greek I3I_I?I+I?I1I?: to draw/write, for its use in pencils) is one of the allotropes of carbon. ... It has been suggested that this article or section be merged into Lubrication. ... Static electricity is a class of phenomena involving the net charge present on an object; typically referring to charged object with voltages of sufficient magnitude to produce visible attraction, repulsion, and sparks. ... Calcium carbonate is a chemical compound, with chemical formula CaCO3. ...
Faster-burning propellants generate higher temperatures and higher pressures, however they also increase the wear of the gun barrels.
A Primex powder contains 0-40% nitroglycerin, 0-10% dibutyl phthalate, 0-10% polyester adipate, 0-5% rosin, 0-5% ethyl acetate, 0.3-1.5% diphenylamine, 0-1.5% N-nitrosodiphenylamine, 0-1.5% 2-nitrodiphenylamine, 0-1.5% potassium nitrate, 0-1.5% potassium sulfate, 0-1.5% tin dioxide, 0.02-1% graphite, 0-1% calcium carbonate, and nitrocellulose as the remainder to 100%. [2]
I stand by what I said, all guns will fire underwater. Due to their thinner barrels shotguns will be damaged, but I know of no rifle or handgun that can't fire underwater without damage. The action might have to be cycled manually, but it will continue to fire.
The 'modifed Glock' you refer to is just one that's had a small plastic piece installed ('maritime spring cup'?) which surrounds the firing pin spring. This is designed only to increase the reliability of ignition by preventing water from slowing the firing pin's speed. There's no reason Glock should state firing one underwater without this cup would be highly dangerous.
Now the question is why Glock would even state their's is capable of this because the effective range of a 9mm handgun underwater is actually only about arm's length. It's nothing more than a Glock marketing gimmick for armchair commando types who really know little about the real world use of defensive handguns - because they do in fact make up a large share of their purchasers.
quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
I stand by what I said, all guns will fire underwater. Due to their thinner barrels shotguns will be damaged, but I know of no rifle or handgun that can't fire underwater without damage. The action might have to be cycled manually, but it will continue to fire.
I'm sorry, you've lost me with that triple-negative.
Of course any CARTRIDGE can fire underwater (assuming the powder and primer stay dry). The point is there are some guns that are likely to give you a "click" and not a "bang" if you pull the trigger underwater.
quote:]The 'modifed Glock' you refer to is just one that's had a small plastic piece installed ('maritime spring cup'?) which surrounds the firing pin spring. This is designed only to increase the reliability of ignition by preventing water from slowing the firing pin's speed.
And here it is:
Again, the point is that ordinary Glocks might NOT fire underwater, hence the need for this special part. (You can see the link by Hawkcarse above detailing this).
quote:There's no reason Glock should state firing one underwater without this cup would be highly dangerous
To be clear Glock's position on firing its guns underwater is that it advises against doing so, because it can be dangerous, and that anyone trying this does so at their own risk.
Though this applies to both modified and unmodified guns, from what I understand, Glock limits sales of the modified cups to only "responsible" entities.
So in other words, Glock only lets those people it thinks know what they are doing have the parts to shoot underwater. If you are trying this with an unmodified gun, by definition, you are unqualified!
quote:Now the question is why Glock would even state their's is capable of this because the effective range of a 9mm handgun underwater is actually only about arm's length.
Whether or not there is any utility to actually firing a gun underwater isn't really the issue here.
Glock recommends against firing their guns underwater, for the same reason it recommends against using reloads in its guns. Its because dumba$$es who don't know what they are doing are likely to blow up their guns, hurt themselves, then try to sue Glock for their self-inflicted injuries. Glock doesn't want to be liable for this sort of stupidity, and says so.
quote:It's nothing more than a Glock marketing gimmick for armchair commando types who really know little about the real world use of defensive handguns - because they do in fact make up a large share of their purchasers.
Supposedly there are dive teams that use modified Glocks underwater to repel sharks. The advantage of a modified Glock over a more conventional "bang" stick, is that the Glock will give you 17 rounds, plus of course, you've still got a functional 9mm pistol, which has its own benefits when you AREN'T underwater!
The main point behind the modification isn't specifically to shoot underwater, though that's potentially useful too. If they ever even happen at all, James Bond-style underwater scuba fights are probably exceptionally rare in the real world, but I could imagine how special forces could value the ability to discharge their guns underwater if necessary.
The real reason for this modification is just to ensure reliable function of the gun in wet environments.
As to marketing, I don't see how Glock advising against firing its guns underwater is supposed to sell more guns. Perhaps Glock should advise against firing its pistols not only when scuba-diving, but also when skydiving, surfing, riding the Space Shuttle, drinking martinis, etc. [;)]
Yes gunpowder goes off under water and I'm sure enough to bet my life on it that it would also fire in a vacuum.
studying underwater shots is like studying the effects of baking an apple pie in freefall.[:o)][:D]
Former Member U.S. Navy Shooting Team
Former NSSA All American
Navy Distinguished Pistol Shot
MO, CT, VA.