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vertical fore grip question
shilowar
Member Posts: 38,811 ✭✭✭
I am aware that a vertical fore grip on a pistol, such as a Kel Tec PLR-16, or an AR Pistol makes it an AOW...because pistols by definition are held by one grip
As I understand it, vertical foregrips are "legal" on ARs and other Rifles
Does the same apply to shotguns?....longguns are longguns..and so on?
thanks
As I understand it, vertical foregrips are "legal" on ARs and other Rifles
Does the same apply to shotguns?....longguns are longguns..and so on?
thanks
Comments
Pistols are designed to be held mainly by one hand. . .though in reality for at least the last 40 years, most shooters have been using two hands to shoot most of them, and gun design has evolved to reflect that.
For example, the hooked triggerguards on some modern combat pistols is there at least in part to serve as a resting place for the support hand. EG, here's the standard issue US military sidearm, the 9mm Beretta 92:
I think its perfectly fair to say that this gun (and others) were designed to be fired by two hands.
As its name suggests, the definition of an "Any other weapon" (AOW) is itself somewhat ambiguous. Other than what?
The term explicitly refers to concealable guns that don't fall into other defined legal categories (such as a short-barreled rifle or ordinary pistol).
In practice, it refers to three types of guns: a. firearms that are designed to look like something else while being fired (eg cane gun, umbrella gun, cell phone gun), guns that don't look like conventional guns at all (eg palm guns), or pistols that have a vertical foregrip.
AOW *could* apply to otherwise conventional rifles, if they were disguised to look like something else. For example, the crutch sniper-gun from the famous movie "Day of the Jackal" would be a perfect example:
In terms of the vertical foregrip on a pistol, while the ATF takes the position that this qualifies a gun as an AOW and enforces the rules as such, I've heard that they've never actually won a prosecution on such a case in a court of law.
Now of course, you don't want to push your luck with the ATF, nor end up as a test case, but its not entirely clear that their interpretation of this vertical foregrip rule on a pistol is legally correct. If you think about it, a vertical foregrip doesn't affect a guns concealability, and that is part of the formal definition of an AOW.
More to the point, it largely doesn't matter anyway.
If you are talking about shortened pistol versions of military style semi-automatic rifles (like AK-47 pistols, AR-15 pistols, Thompson submachine gun pistols, etc), these invariably use detachable magazines, that themselves can be grasped like a vertical foregrip.
So you don't need an "extra" vertical foregrip on an AR-15 pistol because there is one right there feeding the bullets into the gun!
Well to be clear, like all legal definitions, this comes down to semantics.
Pistols are designed to be held mainly by one hand. . .though in reality for at least the last 40 years, most shooters have been using two hands to shoot most of them, and gun design has evolved to reflect that.
For example, the hooked triggerguards on some modern combat pistols is there at least in part to serve as a resting place for the support hand. EG, here's the standard issue US military sidearm, the 9mm Beretta 92:
I think its perfectly fair to say that this gun (and others) were designed to be fired by two hands.
As its name suggests, the definition of an "Any other weapon" (AOW) is itself somewhat ambiguous. Other than what?
The term explicitly refers to concealable guns that don't fall into other defined legal categories (such as a short-barreled rifle or ordinary pistol).
In practice, it refers to three types of guns: a. firearms that are designed to look like something else while being fired (eg cane gun, umbrella gun, cell phone gun), guns that don't look like conventional guns at all (eg palm guns), or pistols that have a vertical foregrip.
AOW *could* apply to otherwise conventional rifles, if they were disguised to look like something else. For example, the crutch sniper-gun from the famous movie "Day of the Jackal" would be a perfect example:
In terms of the vertical foregrip on a pistol, while the ATF takes the position that this qualifies a gun as an AOW and enforces the rules as such, I've heard that they've never actually won a prosecution on such a case in a court of law.
Now of course, you don't want to push your luck with the ATF, nor end up as a test case, but its not entirely clear that their interpretation of this vertical foregrip rule on a pistol is legally correct. If you think about it, a vertical foregrip doesn't affect a guns concealability, and that is part of the formal definition of an AOW.
More to the point, it largely doesn't matter anyway.
If you are talking about shortened pistol versions of military style semi-automatic rifles (like AK-47 pistols, AR-15 pistols, Thompson submachine gun pistols, etc), these invariably use detachable magazines, that themselves can be grasped like a vertical foregrip.
So you don't need an "extra" vertical foregrip on an AR-15 pistol because there is one right there feeding the bullets into the gun!
I want that Beretta you have pictured...the 96FS so can you send it to me? thanks
I did own a PLR-16, and I added the tacti-cool foregrip....I found it interesting that it had a full length pic rail underneath, though it would be illegal to mount a vertical grip to that rail...that was a good re-sale during the Obamapanic...
My main question was in regards to my scatter gun, I've got a 930 SPX that I'm gonna add the choate pistol grip stock, and try out a vertical grip on the front handguard, since I already have one for one of my ARs.
MY next question was previously asked...so if you have an AR Pistol, can you add one of those magwell grips? or does that make it an AOW
I want that Beretta you have pictured...the 96FS so can you send it to me? thanks
Its just a random pic I pulled off the internet. I can't send it to you, because I don't own it!
quote:I did own a PLR-16, and I added the tacti-cool foregrip....I found it interesting that it had a full length pic rail underneath, though it would be illegal to mount a vertical grip to that rail...that was a good re-sale during the Obamapanic...
Well, 1913 rails are good for more than just foregrips. For example, you could add a flashlight, laser, bipod, etc. Also, if you REALLY wanted to add that foregrip, you could register the gun as an AOW.
quote:My main question was in regards to my scatter gun, I've got a 930 SPX that I'm gonna add the choate pistol grip stock, and try out a vertical grip on the front handguard, since I already have one for one of my ARs.
OK. As mentioned, vertical grips are perfectly OK on full sized shotguns, so you should be fine.
quote:
MY next question was previously asked...so if you have an AR Pistol, can you add one of those magwell grips? or does that make it an AOW
You mean one of these?
Its a good question. I could give you my own personal opinion (which is that it should be fine since its clearly not a separate grip) but my opinion is worthless here.
The only way to know for absolutely sure is to write and get an advisory opinion from the BATFE. Its quite possible that the ATF has already made this sort of determination, and that its floating "out there" somewhere, but if so, I don't know about it.
I would fathom a guess that it would be considered a aow at that point.
I have an ar pistol with a full length buffer tube, perfectly legal. If I add anything to the back of that tube it would then be considered a sbr. It wouldnt technicaly beadding a stock, but illegal. I would be very careful tryng this until you get something in writing from the batf, as Bean has said
Not disagreeing at all with what you're saying, but just for clarification, the BATFE doesn't write the law. It can issue advisory opinions, but those don't quite have the weight of law either.
Just because the BATFE takes the position that putting a piece of tape on the end of your buffer tube turns a pistol into a rifle, that doesn't necessarily make it so. They can try to test their legal hypothesis in a court of law, and maybe they'll win, and maybe they won't.
As I alluded to above, the entire BATFE interpretation that a vertical foregrip turns a pistol into an AOW is itself questionable and quite possibly not correct. I've heard that they've been called on this in courts of law, and LOST.
I think they'd be stretching things even thinner to assert that sticking a piece of plastic around the magazine well of a gun they themselves have opined many time is fine, constitutes adding a vertical foregrip.
What if I were to stick a piece of grip tape on the front of my magwell to increase traction (as some people actually do)? Did I just create a vertical foregrip and make the gun an AOW? How about if I wrap a cloth bandanna around the mag well? How about if I just CHECKER the front of the magwell? Etc.
I think if you're going to argue that the added magwell grip is a vertical grip, then you have to conclude that the magwell ITSELF is a vertical grip. If that's true, **ALL** AR-15 type pistols are AOWs, even though the BATFE has taken the position many times that they are not.
Now for more fun, here is the actual definition of an AOW:
quote:"...any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12" or more, less than 18" in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition." 26 USC sec. 5845(e).
I'm not a lawyer, but I just don't see any non-tortured interpretation of this rule that prohibits an ordinary pistol with an extra vertical grip on it. In fact, to the contrary, it looks like the bolded bit provides explicit "safe harbor" to an AR-15 pistol with a second grip, since it is a pistol with a rifled bore.
Edit: The ATF takes the position that guns designed to be fired by two hands aren't pistols. . .now you get into the lawyer dance about what exactly a "pistol" is, but I believe at least one Federal judge has opined that adding a second grip to a conventional pistol doesn't make it not a pistol.
Again, all that said, I think the smartest thing to do is to get a written advisory opinion from the BATFE on this.
Probably the MANUFACTURER ought to do it, but that's his problem!