dheffley, let's talk!

JudgeColt

So you are an engineer. (Do they teach you the difference between aluminum alloy and steel in engineer school? How about between scratches and dents? No offense intended. Just kidding again!) When I was in law school, there was a friendly (and sometimes not so friendly) rivalary between law students and engineering students, often culminating in some spectacular prank on or about Saint Patrick's Day. For instance, one time the engineers took a horse up the stairs in the old law building to the second floor courtroom and shot it in the doorway, thereby wedging it in place. They did it on a Friday night so it was Monday before the by-then-ripe horse was discovered. Another time, some law students broke into the student newspaper and stamped every copy with a green-ink stamp reading "The real Saint Pat was a lawyer" before the delivery crew arrived in the early morning. (The paper was published late the night before its cover date.) Ah, those were the days! Now back to the topics we were discussing. Yes, I agree that some stainless steels have enough nickel in them to make them non-magnetic, but, before I made that post, I tested my stainless Colt Pony, which was at hand, and its slide attracted the magnet. I did not try a stainless Beretta, but should have.I also agree that alloy is softer than steel and will consequently dent more easily. (And I are not even an engineer!) On a utility gun, that is part of the price we pay for actually putting it to the use for which it was intended. We cannot keep all of them unfired in the box.As far as the "steel-framed" Tomcat, the Beretta catalogs state the Tomcat frame material is alloy. My early blue Tomcat has an alloy frame. I do not think any Tomcat has ever had a steel frame. I have found that many gunshop employees and owners really do not know a whole lot about firearms, just like many car sales people do not know a lot about the cars they are selling. If your sales person represented the blue Tomcat as having a steel frame, he or she just did not know the facts. It may have looked like steel and that caused the statement to be made.I am still curious about your friend who is hard on guns. How is one hard on guns, unless one reloads excessively hot reloads, or somehow actually abuses the gun? Does your friend fit in one of those categories?I have known people who loaded excessively hot rounds and caused damage or accelerated wear to a firearm, but other than that, or silly endurance or torture tests, how can one be hard on a firearm? All firearms have a finite life, and the Kel-Tec P32 would not be at the high end for ultimate endurance, but the pistol should go several thousand rounds before needing parts replacement. Nice talking to you.

gunny6

Really don`t know of any Tom Cats with steel frames..We have had 2 Tom Cats returned to Beretta for repairs, both pistols were shot alot, the steel recoil arms damaged the alloy frame..Beretta came up with a no cost fix..When you can`t put the slide back on without moving the recoil arms back into position it`s time too send it back...

dheffley

JudgeColt,Yep, we had our problems with the Education majors. They would do lab assistant in the Engineering lab, and grade papers for professors from the grammer standpoint. The professors would only check substance and calculations. Well, as you can see from my posts here, we couldn't type or spell, much less use proper grammer and punctuation. They would nail us on every paper. Since this was before the computer age, our onlt recourse was to misfile the englisk literature books in the library (another place they did lab work) so they couldn't find them for their thesis'. Doesn't sound like much, but when you have a class on 900 doing it, they had a hell of a problem. The heavier work like you speak of was done off campus by the fraternities.Anyway, back to the issues. About 10% of the standard stainless steels are magnetic. It just depends on the grade used. The gun manufactures use a lower grade with some carbon because of the toughness and the fact that the less nickel, the less gauld. Since stainless and aluminum both gauld easily, it is better not to put them together with their own kind. In otherwords, stainless on stainless is a gaulding waiting to happen. Especially if the contact point are close tolerance as in an accurized gun. The best bet is carbon on stainless. I'm just not real fond of alluminum frames in larger bore, high pressure guns like a .45 ACP. I have two, one Para-Ordance 7.45, and a Kimber Ultra Carry. Then of course, The Beretta's. I stopped by the gun shop and talked to the owner this afternoon. He told me the kid (early twenties) was working there while going to school, and he knew nothing about guns. He said he didn't doubt that the kid said it, but that there were no Tomcats with steel frames. He offered to do a trade to something else if I wanted to. I'm happy with it, so we'll let it go. I had an old Beretta that had a steel frame years ago. I sold it to my dad, and when he died, my brother grabbed it. Wish I would have never let it go.As far as David, he does some handloading, and does load everything to the max load or above. I have seen him perforate the primers on revolvers. But he was shooting factory stuff in the Kel-Tec. When I say he's hard on guns, I mean he has zero mechanical knowledge, and his idea to correct a problem is to FORCE it. If a round doesn't want to chamber, then his rule is to beat the slide or bolt with your hand or any object you can get your hands on until it does. He never cleans a gun, even if he drops it in the sand. Sand paper and files are his answer to most problems, and he hasn't looked down a barrel of any gun he owns. He has a Smith & Wesson revolver he proudly displays that has three slugs stuck in the barrel. He had fired a reload that was primed only, no powder. It liked about an inch clearing the muzzel. He fired two more shots behind it and stacked them up, 1,2,3. Nice bulge, ruined gun. I've known him my whole life, and he is probably my best friend. But when he asked to borrow mt Browning to go deer hunting, there's just no way.I grew up in the country and have been around guns my whole life. My dad taught us well, and the USMC taught me better. I have owned somewhere around 250 guns in my life, and built 3. It wasn't until the last 15 years that I started keeping them instead of trading them. I would give anything to have some of those I let go, back. I get smarter with age. Anyway, I'm having trouble getting into the plastic guns. Bought a Glock two years ago. It was fairly accurate, and shot OK, but I had to have it sent back twice for factory repairs. Once they had to replace the barrel, the next time they did a "weld" repair on the frame. As an engineer, I can't see how they "weld" plactic, but that's what the paperwork said. It shot well for another 2000 rounds, then started misfiring. That was it. Got it repaired and sold it. Don't want another.I shoot around 3000 rounds a month with a gun club I'm a member of. I have shooters and collectables. Don't shoot the collectables much. I've found you get what you pay for, and the old reliables are the best. The Colt, Smith, and Ruger revolvers just don't wear out. The rifles hold up well, the shotguns are great, but the automatic pistols are another story. They just don't last like they should. The Colt 1911's (steel) and the Smiths are the best ones from my experience. I just can't bring myself to get into the throw away guns.That's me! Old and set in my ways. I love this BB because I get to learn from others experiences. I even agree with about 75% of what I read. I doesn't take long to figure out who is a brand specific person (my gun's better than your gun & all XXX's are the best) There have beenpoor designs by virtually every manufacturer. I know, I've had plenty of them.Thanks for the talk, and I hope to read more of your post!

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Save, research, then buy the best.Join the NRA, NOW!Teach them young, teach them safe, teach them forever, but most of all, teach them to VOTE!

sandman2234

3000 series machines pretty easily, 4000 series is the magnetic bunch, even carbon on stainless will get nasty if you loose all lubrication, or increase pressure.Some alloys end up being harder,stronger, or abrasive resistant than their individual components. For example, aluminum or brass are both soft, but aluminum bronze is one mean piece of metal.

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Have Gun, will travel

JudgeColt

dheffley:I thought it was just engineering students and law students, but I can see that the English majors would be prone to make your life miserable. Great retaliation. I understand about galling. I bought an early AMT (because Colt had not yet seen fit to make a stainless Government Model) and there were specific instructions about lubrication. I think Lubriplate mixed with 30-weight motor oil was the recommended lubrication to prevent galling. I now use Militec and have never had the pistol gall. When stainless on stainless semi-automatics began to appear from the major manufacturers (Colt and Smith), it is my understanding that differing alloys were used on the slide and frame to reduce or eliminate galling. My Smith & Wesson and Colt stainless on stainless pistols have never galled. I know Glocks are not perfect, but I have to say that they seem to be the most durable pistols ever made. Some have huge round counts through them and are still going strong. Still, there are continuing reports of blowups, particularly with the .45 as I understand it. I just do not like the grip angle and lack of a safety so I never carry one and shoot mine infrequently. I think you can "weld" plastic with heat or chemcials. What had to be "welded" on yours?Your friend David sounds like an accident waiting to happen. I would be afraid to shoot with him, and I certainly would not loan him a gun or any other machine more complicated than a paper clip.I have no concerns about alloy frames on anything. Skeeter Skelton did a torture test on a Colt Commander years ago and put about 10,000 rounds through it with no problems. (I would not characterize a .45ACP as a high pressure round. The typical 9x19 has about double the pressure of the typical .45ACP.) I love alloy frames for their weight reduction. Any Beretta with a steel frame has to be an older one, like a Model 1934, Model 1935 or Model 70S, etc..Nice talking to you. See you on the boards.