AR Question: To float or not?

dirtyharry331

I bought a Noveske basic light with a 16.1" barrel, their special contoured barrel (same weight as goverment model), 1x7 twist [:p]. I mounted a Burris 2-7 x 35 w/balistic plex. Have a Rock River 2 stage trigger in it. It is stock with standard handguard. I zeroed the scope in with bulk surplus ammo. I then used Black Hill 55 gr. FMJBT to test the accuracy as they claim to use to test it at Noveske. Using sandbags as a rifle stand I managed to obtain a keyhole a 3 shot group just under .300"[:D]. My son then managed to get 3 shot groups under .500". Using other ammo (62 gr. priv partizan) gave me groups of 1.0" & under. I would like to put rails on for sling attachment, possible light & maybe a laser. Is it worth putting a floating handguard on this rifle or should I get the rails that change out the standard handguard? What are the recommended brands of handguards or floating tube to use? I only took this baby out once but put about 120 round thru it at that time. I really like the performance but wondering if I'll hurt my accuracy or better it with a floating guard? I am looking to get answers from some of the big AR Guys like Quickmajik, Beantownshootah, Nwcid, dfletcher, armilit1015, cpermd, and others. I appreciate your views to help put me off the fence. Thanks to all that reply.
As always, GOD BLESS AMERICA! GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS! ><>

quickmajik

here are options for you, both are from VLtor.

The Vltor CASV, which will keep most of the stress off the barrel with a sling attached because the upper handguard is attached to the picatinny rail of the upper reciever.. I'd also advise you to get a ZM accuwedge and maybe a rear tensioning pin, so that when you bear down on the sling there will be ZERO play between the recievers assuring accurate shot placement at long range.

Casv
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=142983290

Below is an overview of the casv.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Vltor-CASV-EL-Carbine-Handguard-p/casv-el tan.htm


The other option is a VLTOR VIS monolithic upper, seen here.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=143235297

Here is a brief overview of the specs.

This is the same upper as used in the VIS so you can see the basic specs of it.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/VLTOR-MUR-M4-Upper-Receiver-p/vltor mur - 1a.htm
7"VIS
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/VLTOR-VIS-Carbine-p/vltor vis - 1ak carbine.htm
9"VIS
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/VLTOR-VIS-Mid-Length-p/vltor vis - 2ak mid length.htm

Th VIS is an upgraded upper in every way... They can be had with 7", 9" 10" and 12" monolithic rails. I'd still advise that you add the same parts as above to the lower if you go with a vis.



Harry, There is a casv made for mid length gas systems..

armilite

I would definitely float the barrel as adding any of the accessories would most likely have an effect on the barrel harmonics once you start hanging stuff on it. You also want to free float the barrel if you plan on using a sling when shooting. Some where down the line you may want to hang a bipod on this beast and you want a free float tube if your using a bipod. As far as what to buy there are many good ones out there. The big thing is you get what you pay for. I'm currently in the process of putting a midwest industries free float rail on my 6.8 SPC providing I can get the old front sight housing off. I'll get if off eventually but it's rapidly becoming a pain in the you know what. I went with the Midwest in this case because 1) I can get them at wholesale price and 2) they are located about 15 miles from my house and I like to give the locals my business if I can. You can still get some quality tubes from just about any one. I have 2 of the A.R.M.S. SIR rail systems on two other AR's and they are of excellent quality. LaRue also carries some nice ones as well as Daniel Defense. Their are also pretty decent ones from Yankee Hill, DPMS and Troy. I also have a Badger stabilizer hand guard but that's on a HB 24inch target gun. This should give you a pretty good idea of where to look. Good luck in your quest.

beantownshootah

I'm really NOT "a big AR guy". In fact, I'm probably an AR "idiot" so take this with the appropriate grain of salt.

In theory a floating handguard should only increase (or maintain) accuracy. So yes, if you have to install a different handguard to hang stuff from, and you want to maintain/increase your accuracy, floating is the best way to go.

As mentioned, this should help you retain consistency the most if you are using anything that otherwise might pull/push on the barrel (eg a sling for shooting, a bipod, etc).

In practice, are you really likely to improve 0.3 inch groups by swapping to a floating guard? I suppose its possible, but realistically, probably not. I think the best realistic thing you can hope for is to maintain that same group size using a sling, using a bipod, with and without the light attached, etc.

Is it possible you'll make the accuracy WORSE with a floating setup? Well, probably not, and in theory you shouldn't but in practice, anytime you are changing anything in your setup you'd have the potential to decrease accuracy.

Nwcid

First off Norveske makes a top notch product. I am assuming that the barrel you have is a heavy profile for my answer.

If you just plan on adding a light weight light like a Surefire and adding a sling as a way to carry the gun I dont see a NEED to put on a FF handguard. This is how my .223 carbine "goto" gun is set up.

The only pic I have with they way it is currently set up is a group photo. It is the one on the bottom. Basic light, VFG, Sling run though front sight post. Works for me.



If you are planning on using the sling as shooting aid, pulled up tight and to the side around your arm like match shooters or using a bipod then a FF rail is the way to go. This is how my more accuracy oriented guns are since I have bipods on them. If you are not FF then you will put different amounts of pressure on the barrel each time causing some minor changes.

Here is an example of a Midwest Industries rail on my .300 Whisper. This one is a rifle length rail on a carbine (16") barrel.

dirtyharry331

Sorry I forgot to mention that this is a Basic Reece Light, a Middy with their special profile barrel that keeps the weight the same as standard AR but claims more rigidity, which is shown by the groups it produces. I also have a LMT Middy & a RRA Middy. LMT has a heavy barrel profile & holds a 1.0" group with the standard forearm & the RRA is chrome lined heavy barrel with a standard forearm & holds a 1" - 1 1/4" groups. I'll tell you I had a Bushy V match as well that held 1" groups @ 100 yards but Noveske really won me over once I shot it. I have BETS (benign essential tremors) but this Noveske make me a sharpshooter! Well worth the money I spent on it ($1300).

armilite

quote:
USA
115 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2009 : 2:17:47 PM Show Profile Email Poster Reply with Quote
Sorry I forgot to mention that this is a Basic Reece Light, a Middy with their special profile barrel that keeps the weight the same as standard AR but claims more rigidity, which is shown by the groups it produces.

Regardless of barrel contours stiffness heavy or light barrels adding accessories or slings will have an effect on a non floated barrel. Shooting a rifle with the bayonet mounted will have an effect. Many say shooting the Russian M44 and it's variants with the bayonet extended actually improves accuracy. I have one but I have yet to shoot it so I can't verify or deny those claims. All in all if you add stuff to the barrel and it's not floated it will affect the accuracy compared to when same said accessories are not on the gun. How much is any ones guess.

beantownshootah

quote:Originally posted by armilite1015

Many say shooting the Russian M44 and it's variants with the bayonet extended actually improves accuracy. I have one but I have yet to shoot it so I can't verify or deny those claims.

I've taken the bayonet off mine, and I refuse to put it back just to run this test. [;)] If we get overrun by Russian hordes (or zombies), I'll stick it back on.

I suspect that the bayonet folding status doesn't increase INTRINSIC accuracy, but it could affect point of aim. EG the guns will shoot to a slightly different point of impact with the bayonet extended or folded. Since the guns are supposed to have been zeroed with the bayonet extended, you might perceive shooting that way as increasing accuracy.

Also, as a minor secondary point, unfolding the bayonet changes the balance of the gun, putting more weight towards the muzzle. This could have the effect of somewhat stabilizing the gun if shot OFFHAND (the same way target pistol shooters like to add barrel weights to the front of their gun), again, somewhat increasing practical accuracy.

armilite

quote:beantownshootah Posted - 10/15/2009 : 5:04:52 PM

quote:Originally posted by armilite1015

Many say shooting the Russian M44 and it's variants with the bayonet extended actually improves accuracy. I have one but I have yet to shoot it so I can't verify or deny those claims.


I've taken the bayonet off mine, and I refuse to put it back just to run this test. If we get overrun by Russian hordes (or zombies), I'll stick it back on.

I suspect that the bayonet folding status doesn't increase INTRINSIC accuracy, but it could affect point of aim. EG the guns will shoot to a slightly different point of impact with the bayonet extended or folded. Since the guns are supposed to have been zeroed with the bayonet extended, you might perceive shooting that way as increasing accuracy.

Also, as a minor secondary point, unfolding the bayonet changes the balance of the gun, putting more weight towards the muzzle. This could have the effect of somewhat stabilizing the gun if shot OFFHAND (the same way target pistol shooters like to add barrel weights to the front of their gun), again, somewhat increasing practical accuracy.


I could not agree with you more but I will leave the bayonet on just because I like them and you never know when your out in the field and you may not have a can opener with you.