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Winchester M-12 Pigeon Engraved

VGUN1VGUN1 Member Posts: 139 ✭✭
edited January 2016 in Ask the Experts
Winchester Model 12 Pigeon Grade Trap with Number 12=4 or 12-5 Factory engraved. Anyone know how many of these were made? Got some information; less than a 100 from one place; over that from another. Any info would be appreciated. "Thanks"

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    CapnMidnightCapnMidnight Member Posts: 8,520
    edited November -1
    I have consulted all of my Winchester information, Burt's Red Book, R.L. Wilson's book and everything else I could find, without finding an answer to your question. I'm thinking Burt himself is your best bet.
    W.D.
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    Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,279 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I do not have the answer to the question. That stated, I would be more surprised by the "less than a 100" number than I would be by the greater than 100 possibility.
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    XXCrossXXCross Member Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hmmm....probably one of the most commonly "faked" shotguns.

    An engraver friend of mine says that he is always being asked to
    upgrade M-12's to pigeon status. But maybe ....?
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    Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,279 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    After putting some additional thought into this, I should have mentioned that Pauline Muerrle would be the best person to consult in regards to the authenticity, and possibly an estimated production number. She was well acquainted with the Kusmit brothers, and Jasper Salerno (the fellows who would have engraved most of the Model 12 Pigeon Guns).
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    VGUN1VGUN1 Member Posts: 139 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    "Thanks" Bert for the information. Just came up, from the same estate, the same M-12 only in Skeet WS-1. Best looking M-12 I ever saw.
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    tamarackcovetamarackcove Member Posts: 30 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by XXCross

    Hmmm....probably one of the most commonly "faked" shotguns.

    An engraver friend of mine says that he is always being asked to
    upgrade M-12's to pigeon status. But maybe ....?


    You are probably correct.... The Pigeon is the easiest part of the fake. You would still have to engine turn the bolt, (to the correct diameter turnings), and come up with Pigeon grade wood. The Model 12 receiver made a nice "canvas" for the engravers art.

    Tamarackcove
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    GuvamintCheeseGuvamintCheese Member Posts: 38,932
    edited November -1
    It's real easy to determine if it's aftermarket engraving. Winchester moved the barrel stampings forward to accommodate factory engraved barrels. Guns that were done afterwards will be engraved around barrel stamp.
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    The JaegerThe Jaeger Member Posts: 81 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    The head of the grip cap screw should is engraved on a pigeon grade too.
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    XXCrossXXCross Member Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Re; GuvamintCheese
    This is correct, however not many people would be aware of this.
    (and they get "burnt' all the time)
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