In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.
Options
Winchester 1876 continued
Levers
Member Posts: 26 ✭✭
Any other thoughts from previous thread "1876 grooved forend" are appreciated. Thanks to all who commented so far.
Comments
The pictures of your Model 1876 indicate that the rifle has been altered after the fact.
Edit: I am going to rephrase this just a bit. Winchester did not ever mark the serial number on any of the lever-actions models in more than one location as a standard manufacturing process. During return trips for an "R&R", and on very rare occasion, the person doing the rework may have added the serial number to the part being replaced or reworked. That stated, in the vast majority of cases, the Work Order number associated with the R&R was marked on the reworked/replaced part versus the serial number.
quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
Yes... whomever it was that told you that Winchester marked the serial number on the underside of the barrel has no idea what they are talking about. Winchester did not ever mark the serial number on any of the lever-actions models in more than one location, and it was always on the lower tang, or the bottom forward section of the receiver frame.
The pictures of your Model 1876 indicate that the rifle has been altered after the fact.
quote:Originally posted by Levers
Thank you for the comments bert. You have been praised by many users on this forum and i do not doubt your knowledge. But, one thing i have learned about winchester production and records is never say never. I wish it was cut and dry but its a tricky one. All cuts in the barrel are where they are supposed to be. Barrel address is all correct. Barrell also has the CCC mark on under side by receiver. Thanks again.
quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
Yes... whomever it was that told you that Winchester marked the serial number on the underside of the barrel has no idea what they are talking about. Winchester did not ever mark the serial number on any of the lever-actions models in more than one location, and it was always on the lower tang, or the bottom forward section of the receiver frame.
The pictures of your Model 1876 indicate that the rifle has been altered after the fact.
An example of serial number applied to barrel. Newsletter V2.1 on georgemadis.com. Never say never.
quote:Originally posted by Levers
Thank you for the comments bert. You have been praised by many users on this forum and i do not doubt your knowledge. But, one thing i have learned about winchester production and records is never say never. I wish it was cut and dry but its a tricky one. All cuts in the barrel are where they are supposed to be. Barrel address is all correct. Barrell also has the CCC mark on under side by receiver. Thanks again.
quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
Yes... whomever it was that told you that Winchester marked the serial number on the underside of the barrel has no idea what they are talking about. Winchester did not ever mark the serial number on any of the lever-actions models in more than one location, and it was always on the lower tang, or the bottom forward section of the receiver frame.
The pictures of your Model 1876 indicate that the rifle has been altered after the fact.
Mark,
The ramblings of the late George Madis, are JUNK, compared to the new reference books that are out there. His research, was very sloppy, at the very best.
You are hoping, at best, that your rifle is something, that it is not, and that it is original from the factory.
I own a Single Shot (Low Wall) with a barrel stamping of 49107 and J.P.P. The barrel has been set back 1" into the receiver, and has an extra mainspring dovetail to prove it. This rifle also sports a UNSTAMPED serial number pistol grip set trigger tang that fits perfectly. So, the original serial number is lost.
I lettered 49107, and it is a high wall chambering (32-40 if I recall). It is certainly not the serial number of my receiver.
So, best case, the serial number was stamped on the barrel during a R&R; worst case it was stamped by a non Winchester gunsmith.
PS - the next article on that 1886, George should have learned the difference between a "Beeches" and a Lyman #5 Combination front sight....
An example of serial number applied to barrel. Newsletter V2.1 on georgemadis.com. Never say never.
quote:Originally posted by Levers
Thank you for the comments bert. You have been praised by many users on this forum and i do not doubt your knowledge. But, one thing i have learned about winchester production and records is never say never. I wish it was cut and dry but its a tricky one. All cuts in the barrel are where they are supposed to be. Barrel address is all correct. Barrell also has the CCC mark on under side by receiver. Thanks again.
quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
Yes... whomever it was that told you that Winchester marked the serial number on the underside of the barrel has no idea what they are talking about. Winchester did not ever mark the serial number on any of the lever-actions models in more than one location, and it was always on the lower tang, or the bottom forward section of the receiver frame.
The pictures of your Model 1876 indicate that the rifle has been altered after the fact.
That is not a serial number... it is a Work Order number. George Madis published a fair amount of information that was not accurate.
In regards to the "J.P.P." marking, that was James P. Parker, and he was Winchester's primary rework man from at least the early 1880s through approximately 1915. Whenever he reworked a barrel (or installed and fitted a new barrel), he stamped his initials, and the Work Order number on the barrel. If the original barrel was altered, they will be marked "REBORE", "REFINISH", etc. If the barrel was replaced, it will only have his initials and the work order number.
Then there is record keeping. We need to keep in mind that all the records were kept by hand, and with many guns being produced and logged every day, things sometimes got missed. And, with the financial condition some manufacturers were in, some of the record keeping can be somewhat questionable.
What strikes me as odd about your gun, is the amount of time between when it arrived in the warehouse and when it left. I wonder if maybe it arrived originally as a standard piece, but was later pulled and customized for a special customer.
quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
quote:Originally posted by Levers
An example of serial number applied to barrel. Newsletter V2.1 on georgemadis.com. Never say never.
quote:Originally posted by Levers
Thank you for the comments bert. You have been praised by many users on this forum and i do not doubt your knowledge. But, one thing i have learned about winchester production and records is never say never. I wish it was cut and dry but its a tricky one. All cuts in the barrel are where they are supposed to be. Barrel address is all correct. Barrell also has the CCC mark on under side by receiver. Thanks again.
quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
Yes... whomever it was that told you that Winchester marked the serial number on the underside of the barrel has no idea what they are talking about. Winchester did not ever mark the serial number on any of the lever-actions models in more than one location, and it was always on the lower tang, or the bottom forward section of the receiver frame.
The pictures of your Model 1876 indicate that the rifle has been altered after the fact.
That is not a serial number... it is a Work Order number. George Madis published a fair amount of information that was not accurate.
In regards to the "J.P.P." marking, that was James P. Parker, and he was Winchester's primary rework man from at least the early 1880s through approximately 1915. Whenever he reworked a barrel (or installed and fitted a new barrel), he stamped his initials, and the Work Order number on the barrel. If the original barrel was altered, they will be marked "REBORE", "REFINISH", etc. If the barrel was replaced, it will only have his initials and the work order number.
quote:Originally posted by tsr1965
quote:Originally posted by Levers
An example of serial number applied to barrel. Newsletter V2.1 on georgemadis.com. Never say never.
quote:Originally posted by Levers
Thank you for the comments bert. You have been praised by many users on this forum and i do not doubt your knowledge. But, one thing i have learned about winchester production and records is never say never. I wish it was cut and dry but its a tricky one. All cuts in the barrel are where they are supposed to be. Barrel address is all correct. Barrell also has the CCC mark on under side by receiver. Thanks again.
quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
Yes... whomever it was that told you that Winchester marked the serial number on the underside of the barrel has no idea what they are talking about. Winchester did not ever mark the serial number on any of the lever-actions models in more than one location, and it was always on the lower tang, or the bottom forward section of the receiver frame.
The pictures of your Model 1876 indicate that the rifle has been altered after the fact.
Mark,
The ramblings of the late George Madis, are JUNK, compared to the new reference books that are out there. His research, was very sloppy, at the very best.
You are hoping, at best, that your rifle is something, that it is not, and that it is original from the factory.
JUNK!! Shame on you bad mouthing Madis. With regard to the article i mentioned, it is what it is. If i have learned anything in my years of collecting winchesters its that nothing is for certain. Some say if its not in the winchester records its not correct. How could it be explained if the only thing mentioned in the record for a particular record was the model and that it was a rifle? Does that mean no trigger, wood, barrel, etc.? I dont think so. Im not sure if my gun is correct or not and with so many uncertainties perhaps i will never know. As soon as someone says never a contradiction appears.
quote:Originally posted by tsr1965
quote:Originally posted by Levers
An example of serial number applied to barrel. Newsletter V2.1 on georgemadis.com. Never say never.
quote:Originally posted by Levers
Thank you for the comments bert. You have been praised by many users on this forum and i do not doubt your knowledge. But, one thing i have learned about winchester production and records is never say never. I wish it was cut and dry but its a tricky one. All cuts in the barrel are where they are supposed to be. Barrel address is all correct. Barrell also has the CCC mark on under side by receiver. Thanks again.
quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
Yes... whomever it was that told you that Winchester marked the serial number on the underside of the barrel has no idea what they are talking about. Winchester did not ever mark the serial number on any of the lever-actions models in more than one location, and it was always on the lower tang, or the bottom forward section of the receiver frame.
The pictures of your Model 1876 indicate that the rifle has been altered after the fact.
Mark,
The ramblings of the late George Madis, are JUNK, compared to the new reference books that are out there. His research, was very sloppy, at the very best.
You are hoping, at best, that your rifle is something, that it is not, and that it is original from the factory.
Don't fool yourself, big boy...there is explaining to do as to why his serial number/DOM, is as much as 5 years off. That alone should be a red flag as to the credibility of his ramblings.
You might want to read this also, while you are at it.
http://forums.GunBroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=317678