German Luger Value & Info

clickclick

Hello all, has been a long while since I have been here...

I am going to be selling this Luger for a new client & am looking for info/history/value.

This has been in his family since the early 40's when my clients dad bought it in NY state at a "hock shop" as he called it. He inherited it in 1983 & purchased 500 rounds that he still has in the original boxes which we will be selling also. The gun operates well & shoots accurate.

It has a beautiful bore & is in very good/excellent condition overall with minor marks. I am curious as to the age - serial is 1295 - & I believe this was produced by DWM from 1900-1923 but I could be wrong (from Americanrifleman.org). It has a 3" barrel, is this the norm for this handgun? The mag has a walnut end with no serial number which I believe is correct? The numbers are all matching. What does the N & crest stand for?

I appreciate any info on this gun!

Jonathan











EDIT:
"I'd like you to look at the underside of the barrel, please. Notice the crown ovr 'N'? then beneath is the SerNo? Now take a glass and look real carefully and notice the very faint stamping beneath the SerNo. That's the caliber. Can you make the numbers out? If the numbers are 8.82, then it takes the 9mm Parabellum round. Thanks, Joe"

Joe, I took some shots under the barrel & am not seeing the caliber...





"Do to the Treaty of Versailles the Germans could only manufacturer .30 Cal. Luger's, with barrels no longer then 3 7/8"."

The 30 cal. is the ammo my client used when he tested the Luger. He did purchase the 500 rounds back in 1983 when he inherited the gun...

He just brought over the publication from 1983 where he found the ad for the ammo & where he purchased it. It is called The "Bad" Bob News (FedOrd - Federal Ordnance, Inc out of Cal.). The .30 Luger Geco ammo (model #AM-0069) retailed for 19 cents a round or $190.00 per 36lb case (1000 rounds). Says they are brass cased, berdan primed & non-corrosive.

Here are some more photos of the few markings I could find. My client cleaned the gun & when he had it apart he did not see any additional markings or stamps. I will double check tho.






Thanks for the input & great info so far!!

perry shooter

the letter N with a crown over it is used on some commercial lugers from the 1906-1914 time frame . However the grip frame with out grip safety or stock lug looks to be a later design. the serial number looks to be the military type 4 digits But on the other hand if military then all the small parts SHOULD have the last 2 digits of the serial number and yours does not . lastly the shells pictured are 30 Luger and I would think the later model frame should be 9MM between WWI and WWII they did make some rework models that were 30 luger but this does not look like a rework to me. I guess What I am saying is without having the pistol IN HAND the pictures while very good ask more questions then they answer for ME. Others may be able to give you more useful information I do not profess to be THAT knowledgeable on all the different lugers. Please post here or Email me via my profile if you put this pistol up for sale. Thanks Perry Shooter.

EDIT One of My reference books Lugers at random. Show this proof mark as NUMBER 4 on a list and description states "Commercial" and the dates given 1906-1914 I did not see the stock lug when I posted the first answer so that explains one point that I had a question about but it should have more proof marks if the parts were military but all proofs I see are this same N with crown on top. The safety trigger and takedown lever should be STRAW color and may be the lighting on trigger but the takedown lever for sure looks BLUED this would be late production WW II time frame unless it is a refinished gun But it sure looks to me as it was never buffed the pictures are good enough to see tooling marks . The more I see the more questions I come up with like the rear of toggle with the 2 digits 95 but no other parts Side plate ETC with two digits. I would love to look at the pistol in person to see if it is rust blued "inside still in the white. or if it has been DIPPED HOT BLUE inside and out.

MIKE WISKEY

"What does the N & crest stand for?".......that is a 'fancy' way of writing 'DWM', the barrel should be about 3 5/8" (you count the part inside the receiver ring). If the part #'s don't match the gun isn't original, it has been reworked and would be valued as a shooter. You do need to address the cal. part, you have .30 luger ammo pictured but you state it is a 9mm pistol (the luger was made in both cals.)

givette

Perry Shooter: It has the stock lug. (Yes, I had to look again). Wasn't the crown over 'N' German nitro proof? It may be civilian, due to the absence of German gov't property stamps. The plot thickens.

To click, your brief explanation indicates that the heir bought the ammo after receiving the firearm. I'd like you to look at the underside of the barrel, please.

Notice the crown ovr 'N'? then beneath is the SerNo? Now take a glass and look real carefully and notice the very faint stamping beneath the SerNo. That's the caliber. Can you make the numbers out? If the numbers are 8.82, then it takes the 9mm Parabellum round. Thanks, Joe
EDIT
If you have determined that the firearm is .30 Luger, then, I guess, it's a moot point. The stamping beneath the SerNo, is visible in your closeup photos of the barrel, but I can't make out the numbers. It's there. Believe me! Best, Joe

Spartacus

it's an "alphabet" luger. 4 digit ser# with a "k" = 1922 dom.
commercial lugers made and imported to u.s. 20's an 30's. some are marked "made in germany" signifying they were made for export. the "N" with the crown is a smokeless powder proof (nitro proof).
most of the commercial lugers of this era had the stock lug, as yours has (btw, a replica stock-holster is available for $125, but it's illegal unless you have a 16" barrel, which are available for $225). alot of the .30 cal lugers were rebarreled for 9mm when the got to the u.s. the mag will feed both the 9mm and the .30luger round. the ammo is hotter than the common 9mm made here, the parabellums run better with a hotter load. NATO 9mm ammo works well. seller-beloit(sp?) works too.
tom

edit; currently selling in the $850-1200 range.

rufe-snow

I believe that the Luger is whats called a 1920 Commercial. These were Luger's assembled from previously manufactured mostly military parts, for commercial sale.

Do to the Treaty of Versailles the Germans could only manufacturer .30 Cal. Luger's, with barrels no longer then 3 7/8". As it's not marked with the country of origin, i.e. "Germany", it probably was not intended for sale in the U.S., but was brought back by G.I. as a Second World War souvenir.

It looks to be in Very Good condition. My WAG is that it would be in the $500-$700 range.


I GOT THIS LINK OFF THE NET SHOWING A 1920 COMMERCIAL FOR SALE THAT IS VERY SIMILAR TO YOURS. CLICK ON THE THUMBNAILS FOR CLOSE-UPS. MONEY WISE THE ONES I'M SEEING ON THE NET ARE WAY TO OPTIMISTIC, TO SAY THE LEAST. WHEN I WAS COLLECTING, 1920 COMMERCIALS WERE CONSIDERED THE RED HEADED STEPCHILD OF LUGERS, i.e. THEY WERE NON MILITARY, NON DWM LUGERS, ASSEMBLED BY EVERYBODY AND THEIR BIL IN GERMANY, DURING THE EARLY TO MID 20'S TIME FRAME. MOST LUGER COLLECTORS BACK THEN, JUST IGNORED THEM.

http://www.joesalter.com/detail.php?f_qryitem=5576

PA Shootist

I have a Luger that is virtually identical to this one in all respects but the serial number. Over the years I have always concluded from descriptions and photos, it is a 1920 Commercial model Luger, manufactured as is yours by DWM (Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken, which translates as German Weapons and Munitions Factory). It shouldn't be very hard to determine the caliber. Mine is a 7.65 (.30) as stated the 9mm military caliber was prohibited to civilians. The bore diameter difference should be obvious between the .30 and the 9mm's .356 or so.

Mine came to me from my father with an interesting story. World War II had broken out, and my father was operating a flight-training school at a small airport near here. The Pennsylvania State Police came by and said the airport would have to post an armed guard 24 hrs. The guys looked around to each other, and nobody owned a gun of any sort. Cop said no problem, we'll provide one, and next day came by with this Luger. Dad figured it had been confiscated from someone, and those were very different times. My Luger today is the airport guard Luger from the early war years.

rufe-snow

quote:Originally posted by PA Shootist
1920 Commercial model Luger, manufactured as is yours by DWM (Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken),



This is the crux of the problem with these Lugers and the reason collectors tend to ignore them. They weren't manufactured by DWM. They were assembled from a mixture of military and commercial parts after the end of the First World War by a bunch of different guys looking to make some bucks.

clickclick

Thanks everyone! It looks as tho my client is going to have me list this luger in the auctions.

Greatly appreciated - as always you guys are a wealth of info!

Jonathan

PA Shootist

Just curious to Rufe-snow: I can't understand the DWM logo and matching serial numbers throughout this pistol, and mine, versus the statement these were manufactured from a collection of leftover parts by various assemblers? They seem to be very well fitted, and finished. I would have thought more likely DWM trying to scrape up some much-needed foreign currency, in the times of little or no German military purchases, and greatly devalued currency of their own. Kind of like the previous Soviet-bloc countries and the AK's, and other military weapons no longer being ordered by the Warsaw Pact, and weapons manufacturing arsenals with tremendous production capabilities sitting idle. Just wondering...

rufe-snow

quote:Originally posted by PA Shootist
Just curious to Rufe-snow: I can't understand the DWM logo and matching serial numbers throughout this pistol, and mine, versus the statement these were manufactured from a collection of leftover parts by various assemblers? They seem to be very well fitted, and finished. I would have thought more likely DWM trying to scrape up some much-needed foreign currency, in the times of little or no German military purchases, and greatly devalued currency of their own. Kind of like the previous Soviet-bloc countries and the AK's, and other military weapons no longer being ordered by the Warsaw Pact, and weapons manufacturing arsenals with tremendous production capabilities sitting idle. Just wondering...


DWM did make commercial Lugers during this time frame. The serial number range took up where they left off at the start of the First World War. Approximately 89,000, note it's a 5 digit number. The 1920 commercial Lugers on the other hand use the 4 digits with lower case letter that was the standard format that was used by the German military Lugers.

At this late date it's not known who actually assembled/manufactured the 1920 commercial Lugers, very few are known to have either manufacturers/importers/retailers markings. It's speculated that a number of different companies got into this business as Germany was really hurting for money after they lost the war. The parts were useless to the Germany military because the Treaty of Versailles tightly controlled the amount of military firearms and manufacture of new military firearms in post World War I Germany.

Collectors differentiate the post World War I commercial Lugers made by DWM from the 1920 commercials, by calling them 1923 commercials. Comparable specimens of the 1923 vis a vis the 1920 would have double the value, IMHO.