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Winchester 1885 38 Long

4guage4guage Member Posts: 6 ✭✭
edited September 2010 in Ask the Experts
I am in the process of selling off my father-in-laws collection and I am trying to determine specifics for one of the Winchester 1885's in his collection. It is an early style Low Wall with "38 Long" stamped on top of the barrel. My father-in-law did not have much information about this gun in his gun register except he called it an "1885 Winchester Lo-Wall High Breech Block Single Shot 38 CF Rifle". There is also an extra breech block with this gun that converts it to a 38 Rimfire. My question: Is this a 38 Colt CF? If so, it would appear this is a fairly rare gun.

Comments

  • captkirk3@dslextreme.comcaptkirk3@dslextreme.com Member Posts: 3,804
    edited November -1
    You need to talk to Bert On the Ask the Experts Forum....He's the Forum Expert on Winchester High Wall and Low Wall....
  • tsr1965tsr1965 Member Posts: 8,682 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hello 4guage,

    Welcome to the forums here on Gunbroker.

    We have some Winchester experts on here, and one who specifically centers a lot of his world around the 1885's. He also spends a mountainous amount of time at the Cody doing research on them, and other early model Winchester's. His name is Bert H., and I am sure he will be along shortly. If he has a serial number, and some nice well defined pictures, he will be able to give you a very close birthdate, and possibly the condition in which it left the factory.

    There is a sticky thread near the top of the "Experts" forum that describes how to post photo's. You will have to use a photohosting website like "Photobucket", to post them.

    Best
  • 4guage4guage Member Posts: 6 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    The serial Number on this gun is 5581. I am attaching a few pictures for your reference.
    Thanks!
    01med.jpg
    05med.jpg
    10med.jpg
    16med.jpg
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by 4guage
    I am in the process of selling off my father-in-laws collection and I am trying to determine specifics for one of the Winchester 1885's in his collection. It is an early style Low Wall with "38 Long" stamped on top of the barrel. My father-in-law did not have much information about this gun in his gun register except he called it an "1885 Winchester Lo-Wall High Breech Block Single Shot 38 CF Rifle". There is also an extra breech block with this gun that converts it to a 38 Rimfire. My question: Is this a 38 Colt CF? If so, it would appear this is a fairly rare gun.


    The cartridge that your old low-wall is chambered for is the 38 Long rimfire. The breech block that is currently in your rifle is for the rimfire cartridge versus centerfire. Can you post a picture of the extra breech block?

    I will post more on your rifle a bit later this evening

    WACA Historian & Life Member

  • 4guage4guage Member Posts: 6 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hi Bert. Thank you very much for the information. I will look forward to the extra information on this gun. I am attaching a photo below of the extra breech block that was supposed to be for the 38 RF. Now I wonder what it is for. I can post additional pictures of the gun and action if that is helpful.
    Thank you!
    12med.jpg
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    OK, the following is the information contained in the original factory ledgers for your rifle;

    Date received: November 11th, 1886
    Type: Rifle
    Caliber: 38 Long Rim
    Barrel: 26" octagon No. 1
    Trigger: Plain
    Sold: November 16th, 1886
    Order #: 12094 (with one other identical rifle serial 5582)

    Thus far in my survey of all the various caliber/cartridges chambered in the Model 1885, I have verified just (36) rifles made in 38 Long rimfire.

    Even though it is a rare cartridge for the Model 1885, it actually has a negative effect on the value due to the overall graded condition of the rifle being on the low end of the scale.

    The extra breech block you have is not for a low-wall action. Intead, it is a breech block for a high-wall rimfire rifle. Does it have anything stamped on the left side of the block? Neither of the breech blocks will work for a centerfire 38 Long cartridge (unless the breech block in the rifle has been non-factory altered). Do you know how to remove it? If so, please take a picture of the front face of the block with the firing ping pushed all the way forward so that it extrudes from the block face.

    WACA Historian & Life Member

  • 4guage4guage Member Posts: 6 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    This is helpful information! I removed the tape from the extra breech block, and there is a "22" on the left side. On the right side there is a Triangle shaped proofmark with "005" underneath it and "72" underneath and slightly offset to the right. I do not know how to remove the breech block from the gun.
    Thank you!
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by 4guage
    This is helpful information! I removed the tape from the extra breech block, and there is a "22" on the left side. On the right side there is a Triangle shaped proofmark with "005" underneath it and "72" underneath and slightly offset to the right. I do not know how to remove the breech block from the gun.
    Thank you!



    The high-wall breech block is for a .22 caliber rimfire (which is what I suspected when I saw the picture of it). The ".005" indicates that it is that much undersized from the standand breech block. The "72" is an inspection stamp after it was fitted in its original rifle. It most likely will not fit properly in your old low-wall rifle, and it certainly will not function properly, as the firing pin is in the wrong location for a 38 Long rimfire cartridge.

    I very much suspect that the orignal breech block in your rifle is unmodified, and that it will properly ignite a 38 rimfire cartridge.

    If you can locate a 38 Long Colt (centerfire) cartridge, you can test it out... if it does not go "bang" when the hammer drops, inspect the bottom (6 o'clock) position on the cartridge for a slight rectangular shaped dent, as that is where the rimfire firing pin strikes the cartridge. If it does go bang, somebody modified the breech block (rebushed it), and installed a centerfire firing pin. Make sure you inspect and clean the bore before trying to fire it.

    WACA Historian & Life Member

  • 4guage4guage Member Posts: 6 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hi Bert,
    Your observation on the extra breech block being a 22 RF clears up a lot of mystery for me! I believe you are right on the current gun setup being a 38 rimfire. I am looking through my father-in-laws collection to see if I can find an empty 38 shell to try this on. As soon as I proove it out, I believe I will be able to sell this one on gunbroker. Thanks again for your assistance!
    Ron
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by 4guage
    Hi Bert,
    Your observation on the extra breech block being a 22 RF clears up a lot of mystery for me! I believe you are right on the current gun setup being a 38 rimfire. I am looking through my father-in-laws collection to see if I can find an empty 38 shell to try this on. As soon as I proove it out, I believe I will be able to sell this one on gunbroker. Thanks again for your assistance!
    Ron


    You are quite welcome[:)]

    WACA Historian & Life Member

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