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Help identify/Value my Ward & Son's Coach Gun

resdeadresdead Member Posts: 19 ✭✭
edited April 2016 in Ask the Experts
Continued from my other topic....
https://forums.GunBroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=673838

check the post below for continuation of my question.

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    resdeadresdead Member Posts: 19 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by forgemonkey
    All 'experts' topics are locked at or about 10 posts,,,,,,,,you've opened another one (part II) which is SOP,,,,,,,,carry on. [;)]

    Ahhhhhh.... ha, sorry. Totally thought I did something wrong maybe. Thanks for the heads-up. I'll edit my OP to show the correct title.

    Anyway, here's the proof marks I found - looks like S.P. and the crossed swords with the imprints around it are the only ones I can identify off-hand. They look like the "1868-1925 Birmingham voluntary special black powder proof" and the "1868-1925 Birmingham definitive black powder proof for shotguns" - but what about the "4" the "14" and the large indistinguishable looking one?

    http://postimg.org/image/l6bo19rk7/20160422_125850.jpg

    http://postimg.org/image/tkrapcslj/20160422_125911.jpg[/url]
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    Hawk CarseHawk Carse Member Posts: 4,376 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    For some reason I could not blow up the picture of the muzzles.

    I doubt it was factory made that short. "Coach gun" is kind of a modern advertising term.

    Proof marks are British, which is good, there were all sorts of cheap Belgian guns with English SOUNDING brand names.
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    resdeadresdead Member Posts: 19 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Hawk Carse
    For some reason I could not blow up the picture of the muzzles.

    I doubt it was factory made that short. "Coach gun" is kind of a modern advertising term.


    Here try these direct links

    http://postimg.org/image/l6bo19rk7/
    http://postimg.org/image/tkrapcslj/
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    resdeadresdead Member Posts: 19 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    So does the cut barrel destroy the value? Really, my aim is to be able to at least get enough for this that I can get something that's safe to shoot, be it a rifle or a shotgun. I'm more of a "user" than a "collector"
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    rufe-snowrufe-snow Member Posts: 18,650 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Being BP Damascus, with sawed off barrels. Don't see it having any value, other than being a wall hanger in the man cave. Conversation piece, if you will.

    Although anything is possible. Never have run across any of the British made shotguns. From that era, with factory original sawed off barrels.

    My experience with stuff like this. Is that if you can't document it, (sawed off barrels), being factory original. Folks will just laugh at you, trying to sell as being original.
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    resdeadresdead Member Posts: 19 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by rufe-snow
    Being BP Damascus, with sawed off barrels. Don't see it having any value, other than being a wall hanger in the man cave. Conversation piece, if you will.

    Although anything is possible. Never have run across any of the British made shotguns. From that era, with factory original sawed off barrels.

    My experience with stuff like this. Is that if you can't document it, (sawed off barrels), being factory original. Folks will just laugh at you, trying to sell as being original.


    So that's sort of what I'm trying to pin down. You'd have to be crazy to shoot these in the first place, regardless of barrels cut or not, from what I understand.

    So that said, are you saying there's no value for it as a wall hanger either? I'm basically trying to pin down as close to a reasonable dollar ammount as possible before I list it on the site.

    Would the "14" stamped on the barrel indicate "1914"? What about the number 4? I'm really interested to figure out more about this.
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    rufe-snowrufe-snow Member Posts: 18,650 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by resdead
    quote:Originally posted by rufe-snow
    Being BP Damascus, with sawed off barrels. Don't see it having any value, other than being a wall hanger in the man cave. Conversation piece, if you will.

    Although anything is possible. Never have run across any of the British made shotguns. From that era, with factory original sawed off barrels.

    My experience with stuff like this. Is that if you can't document it, (sawed off barrels), being factory original. Folks will just laugh at you, trying to sell as being original.


    So that's sort of what I'm trying to pin down. You'd have to be crazy to shoot these in the first place, regardless of barrels cut or not, from what I understand.

    So that said, are you saying there's no value for it as a wall hanger either? I'm basically trying to pin down as close to a reasonable dollar ammount as possible before I list it on the site.




    If it's cosmetically in nice condition, (no rust or pitting). I see it being between $150 & $250, sold as a wall hanger.

    Make sure on your auction to note, it unfireable. And remove the firing pins. You don't want to get into any legal liability. If some idiot drunk, shoots it on the 4th of July.
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    resdeadresdead Member Posts: 19 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    After some more research I noticed the two Birmingham crown marks are different, one has three figures around the scepters and crown, while the other has only one centered below it. This appears to be the BPC and V that were used by Birmingham only up until 1904

    "The Birmingham Proof Company
    In 1813 the Proof House of the Birmingham Proof Company was established by an
    Act of Parliament and built in Banbury Street. It was set up to prove all privately
    made firearms (that is non-Ordnance firearms) and it still operates on the same site
    today. The proof marks used from 1813 until 1904 were the crossed sceptres and
    crown mark, incorporating the letters BPC (Birmingham Proof Company), together
    with the crossed sceptres over a V (View) [Fig.5] "

    The "W" looks like the same font of "w" used by birmingham to mark the year 1871 - at least based on their silver proofs, but I'm not sure if that applies to their proofing of firearms as well.

    http://www.925-1000.com/dlc_birmingham.html
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    diver-rigdiver-rig Member Posts: 6,338 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    To measure a barrel, it's from the end of a shell stuck in chamber to the end of the. Barrel. Use a dowel. Looks like you're not getting 18" out of those barrels when you take the chamber out.
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    Hawk CarseHawk Carse Member Posts: 4,376 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Wrong, diver rig.
    A gun barrel is legally measured from muzzle to breech face. Except a revolver.
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    resdeadresdead Member Posts: 19 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by diver-rig
    To measure a barrel, it's from the end of a shell stuck in chamber to the end of the. Barrel. Use a dowel. Looks like you're not getting 18" out of those barrels when you take the chamber out.

    That's how you check to see if breechloaders are empty. I wouldn't really recommend you go sticking anything down the barrel of a loaded shotgun. That's gun safety 101

    Also, a dowel down the muzzle would be measuring from the tip of the shell, not the base.
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