Dirty bore accuracy???

old single shots

I have a Rem. 700 that refuses to shoot really well unless the bore is fouled.Every time i clean the bore ,groups go from 1/2" at 100 yds. to over an inch.It will not settle in again until at least40--50 rounds are through it.Has anyone else noticed this with a rifle?The cal. is .223

BOBBYWINS

Yeppers,
I owned my Mod.600 .243 for a good 15-20 years and probably 400-500 rounds without ever cleanin' it.A real tack driver it was.Come huntin' season,all I ever did was shoot'er a few times to get the feel back.About a year ago I decided to do the right thing and give her a good cleanin'.I'll never do that again!![:0]Can't get a decent group to save my life.[:(]I'll just have to keep on shootin' and see if it'll get better.

BW



IT'S WHAT PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT THEMSELVES THAT MAKES THEM AFRAID.

bpost

When shooting high power matches the 600 yd prone slow fire is shot last. the rifle has about 50 rounds through it by that time. I never did see a change in impact from the bore being dirty.

1KYDSTR

You will hear from both schools of thought on this one, and each probably has it's own merits. I saw Mr Obermayer (sp?) quoted one thime saying that "he had seen more barrels by far, ruined by improper and overcleaning than from shooting". That's a pretty good testament from the likes of him. I have a Savage 340 in 222 that will shoot 1'2 nch groups at 100 yds.,...after it has had 15 fouling/warm-up shots. Baffles the hell out of me, but there it is. I also own a Swedish mauser that will shoot well only after having been shot about 20 times, but will go off even worse if it gets beyond 50 in an afternoon. The vast majority of my other guns behave as one would expect and only shoot well when relatively clean and cool (space between shots is REALLY important) and seem to need a good thorough cleaning each time they are shot.

Most likely the most important thing is HOW and WITH WHAT you clean your guns. Be VERY careful of the crown of any rifle you clean. THe last thing touching the bullet are those tiny little lands and if there is inconsistancy in the barrel crown, the best barrel in the world will give poor results. Clean from the breach if you can, or use brass muzzle guides to protect that crown!

Anyway, some guns will just behave like that (yours) so go with the flow (after making sure that your crown is still undamaged). I would NEVER recommend that you not clean your guns, but sometimes a patch or two with solvent is just the way to go!

"When I cease learning...I'm dead"(Me)
"When I was 14 I used to marvel at how ignorant my old man was...by the time I was 21 I was truelly amazed at how much the old bugger had learned in the intervening 7 years!" Samuel Clemens
"History is written by winners"(Patton)
"You get a lot farther with a kind word and a gun than you do with a kind word alone!"(Al Capone)
"There is nothing lower than the human race...except the French" (Samuel Clemens)

1KYDSTR

You will hear from both schools of thought on this one, and each probably has it's own merits. I saw Mr Obermayer (sp?) quoted one thime saying that "he had seen more barrels by far, ruined by improper and overcleaning than from shooting". That's a pretty good testament from the likes of him. I have a Savage 340 in 222 that will shoot 1'2 nch groups at 100 yds.,...after it has had 15 fouling/warm-up shots. Baffles the hell out of me, but there it is. I also own a Swedish mauser that will shoot well only after having been shot about 20 times, but will go off even worse if it gets beyond 50 in an afternoon. The vast majority of my other guns behave as one would expect and only shoot well when relatively clean and cool (space between shots is REALLY important) and seem to need a good thorough cleaning each time they are shot.

Most likely the most important thing is HOW and WITH WHAT you clean your guns. Be VERY careful of the crown of any rifle you clean. THe last thing touching the bullet are those tiny little lands and if there is inconsistancy in the barrel crown, the best barrel in the world will give poor results. Clean from the breach if you can, or use brass muzzle guides to protect that crown!

Anyway, some guns will just behave like that (yours) so go with the flow (after making sure that your crown is still undamaged). I would NEVER recommend that you not clean your guns, but sometimes a patch or two with solvent is just the way to go!

"When I cease learning...I'm dead"(Me)
"When I was 14 I used to marvel at how ignorant my old man was...by the time I was 21 I was truelly amazed at how much the old bugger had learned in the intervening 7 years!" Samuel Clemens
"History is written by winners"(Patton)
"You get a lot farther with a kind word and a gun than you do with a kind word alone!"(Al Capone)
"There is nothing lower than the human race...except the French" (Samuel Clemens)

MIKE WISKEY

EACH RIFLE IS DIFFERENT, MOST PEOPLE OVER-CLEAN RIFLES BUT YOU CANN'T TELL THEM THAT. A FRIEND SHOT HIS WAY INTO DISTINGUISHED WITH A RIFLE THAT HADN'T HAD A CLEANING (BORE) SINCE EXPERT CLASS. I'M OF THE OPINION THAT IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T FIX IT. RIFLE BORES SHOULD ONLY BE CLEANED WHEN ACCURACY GOES SOUTH (BENCH REST-WHEN YOU GO HOME FROM THE MATCH, HIGH POWER RIFLE EVERY 3/4 MATCHES, HUNTING RIFLE AT THE END OF THE SEASON, .22 MATCH RIFLES EVERY 2-3 CASES OF AMMO.

bobski

not cleaning a gun is like never changing the oil in your car. all you do is put stp in it and one day it breaks down and you say...'huh! what a piece of junk!'
if dirty guns were the secret to accuracy, guns would be designed dirty. if it takes dirt and crud in the lands and grooves to correct an error in a bore, dirt isnt the answer, getting rid of it or fixing it is. the problem with the logic of not cleaning is that dirt accumulation is fluid. it changes every shot. it gets dirtier. it will continue to get dirtier until you clean it. dirt hides mistakes. dirt fills in wobbles in machining, but it wont stay, it will continue to change. tolerences then change. pressures and timing change. you cant say, shoot it and get it dirty and on day 3 for the next 100 shots it will be perfect. it might slowly get better...but it will then slowly get worse. crud is a foreign object. if crud was good, theyd bottle it and sell it as snake oil. i know mr obermeyer. he built my gun. his point is, if you dont carefully protect the crown, you get ruin the barrel if you clean it. the point he was saying is that the odds are if you clean it more often than less, you stand a higher chance of goofing and ruining the bore simply out of running the odds higher. he didnt mean clening a gun ruins them. so, if your gun shot bad to begin with, it means you had a cheap gun with an imperfection. yes, gunk may have improved it, but other bad things can happen to the gun with crud. would i stake my life on a dirty gun? no way. would i trust my guns design to the men who built it? yes. if my gun shot bad would i get rid of it and get a better one? yes. can i bank on my gun continuing to shoot safely and accurately getting dirtier with time? no way. btw...im distinguished shooter myself. i cleaned my gun after every match to usmc specs. it never effected my gun negitively. matter of fact, i can see a drop off in accuracy if i dont clean it.

former air operations officer SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team 2. former navy skeet team, former navy rifle/pistol team member. co-owner skeetmaster tubes inc.. owner/operator professional shooting instruction. NRA certified instructor.

JustC

While Boots was one of the best barrel makers of this century (and one whom I would gladly pay $500 for a 30" blank in 6.5mm 7mm or 30cal) lets start back at some basics.

HOW MANY ROUNDS DOWN THE BORE??? If it has high round count,..sometimes the erosion will require a bit of fouling to settle in. If it was made with dull tooling,..it will be less accurate from the start, but that would be rare. I would look at overcleaning if I saw crown damage (a rounding of the rifling lands at the exit of the bore) If they are 5r rifled, then naturaly one side will be radiused,..but that is not a factory barrel issue since they are not 5r rifled.



why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics?

hivoltg

I have found that if I run a clean (oiled) rag through the bore of any of my rifles they will shoot bad until I shoot a box or two through them, then they tighten back up. Hope this helps.
JC


Opinions are like azzholes, eveyone's got one, and this just happens to be mine!

Point Blank

Attend a benchrest rifle shooting match local to you,these guys shoot VERY well and know what their doing

Most will clean their bore every 10-20 shots

They are experienced and shoot MUCH better than a "good" shooter [:)]

old single shots

I have been to,and shot in,benchrest competion.Maine State hunter benchrest championship 1986 2nd place.I know what is normal.That is why i cannot figure out the way this rifle is acting.

bobski

its simple....you got bondo holding your gun together![:D]

Mr Gee

bobski not to change the subject but rather inlighten us on breaking in a 'new barrel' could explain why some [his-old single shots]barrels
don't shoot well after cleaning, actually i'n about to build a new gun
what is the correct way to break one in.[?] maybe this help all of us
thanks Rich G[:)]

confused....but learning