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New Auto 1911 .45 ACP More Questions

Sparty_76Sparty_76 Member Posts: 714 ✭✭
edited October 2010 in Ask the Experts
I have never owned and automatic before. Just bought a Kimber 1911, 45 ACP. The salesman told me at the gun store to never dry fire the 1911 pistol. The Kimber directions say ease the slide forward and to pull the trigger on and empty chamber before you put the gun away. I know you are not suppose to dry fire a rim fire pistol but what about a center fire, auto or revolver?

The booklet says to never ease the hammer down. How could that hurt anything? How are you suppose to get the gun into the half cock hammer position when loaded and you have released the slide closed? The salesman told me that you should always carry the gun in half cock when it is loaded and in a holster. The thumb safety does not seem very safe to me, it seems like it could be easily disengaged unintentionally.

As long as I am asking, to what some of you may be silly questions, why do you have to "slam" the slide closed on a loaded chamber but ease it forward (closed) on an empty chamber?

Comments

  • rufe-snowrufe-snow Member Posts: 18,650 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Most of the stuff found in recently published owners manuals is lawyer driven drivel. It's to cover their butts incase of any thing at all happening, that could cause them legal liability. The best use for these OM's, is in the bathroom in case you run out of TP.

    Your not going to hurt it by dry firing a small number of times. Don't pay any attention to the salesman, if you have to carry it with a loaded chamber engage the manual safety. As in dry firing your not going to hurt the Kimber by letting the slide slam home on a empty chamber a small number of times. Don't play with it as many people do with a new pistol though by continually dry firing or letting the slide slam forward. My 2?.
  • dfletcherdfletcher Member Posts: 8,173 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It's probably not best to let the slide fly on an empty chamber because (in theory) it jars the sear and can damage the sear notch. I wouldn't slash my wrist over doing it once in a while.

    The thumb safety works just as designed, it physically prevents the sear from moving and locks it in place in the hammer's sear notch. Carrying the 1911 in half cock with a loaded chamber - only thing I can say is lower the hammer very carefully I suppose. Personally any 1911 I have either has the hammer all the way down on a loaded or empty chamber or is "Condition One" - hammer back, safety on with a loaded chamber.

    The thinking (I suppose) putting it on half cock is to prevent an accidental discharge if dropped. The half cock notch was not intended for that use, it's use is to catch the hammer if it falls off full cock. And IIRC the Kimber has a firing pin block, unless you grasp the pistol and deliberately press the trigger you could probably toss it loaded off a roof and it won't go "bang".

    Letting the slide forward under full pressure is fine with a loaded mag, it ensures the gun goes into full battery. I suppose with no loaded mag there's no resistance. Again, I wouldn't let it fly when the gun is empty because there's no need.
  • 45forme45forme Member Posts: 948 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    It seems to me attempting to pull the trigger and 'ease' the hammer down on a loaded chamber is asking for trouble. The 1911 is meant to be carried cocked and locked, and that is a lot safer than what the salesman is tellling you.

    Dry firing is not a problem, again especially if you are only doing it upon unloading. Although it is not that abusive anyway. If you are doing a lot of practice or drills that require dry firing, the money you save in ammo, and the skill that you give yourself with practice will pay for the theoretical replacement parts that you may have to buy a little earlier in the life of the piece.

    1911's are safe cocked and locked for an average experienced operator. Yes the thumb safety could be moved accidentially, but you still have the grip safety, and part of your gun handling should be moving your thumb to the safety, and knowing it well enough to know whether it is engaged. If you still don't think it is safe enough, don't carry a round in the chamber.

    The bottom line is, the people who wrote your manual know it better than the person who sold it. I didn't hear anything in the manual that sounded over cautious.

    Dry fire it, do not ease the hammer down on a loaded chamber. As for the slide, without a cartride in the mag, there is no resistance to the spring slamming the slide home. It won't ruin your gun the first time you do it, but there is not point to doing it, and it does increase wear. Easing the slide home with a round is asking for a failure to feed, or (unlikely but possible) and dinged up hand if you accidentally discharge.

    my 3 cents (you got 1 cent extra because I got carried away..).
  • perry shooterperry shooter Member Posts: 17,105 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You need another salesman . You are correct about RIMFIRE pistols but a 1911 will not be harmed by dry fire. In fact the only thing I have ever seen was one fireing pin retainer that had a very small crack but was not a safety hazard even when cracked. This was after Thousands of rounds of dry Fire. The Military Marksmanship teams Dry Fire hundreds of times a week with every shooter. NEVER rely on ANY half Cock notch the colt series does not have a half cock notch only a shelf . The 1911 safety is designed to carry locked and loaded.
  • beantownshootahbeantownshootah Member Posts: 12,776 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    To reiterate and expand on what has already been said:

    -Don't worry about dry firing your 1911 pistol. Yes, you do NOT want to do that with a rimfire pistol, but that doesn't apply here. The only way dry-firing a 1911 MIGHT be a problem is if you do it thousands and thousands of times, and even then, probably not.

    -1911 pistols are NOT safe to carry with a live round in the chamber and the hammer down. Likewise, the hammer "half cock" is intended as a secondary safety measure, NOT a way to carry a loaded pistol!

    1911 pistols are DESIGNED and INTENDED to be carried "cocked and locked" with a live round in the chamber, the hammer back, and the safety engaged.

    If you think its easy to accidentally disengage the safety, I'd suggest trying it (WITH AN UNLOADED GUN, OBVIOUSLY!). I think you'll find that NORMAL 1911 safeties are actually quite "positive" and its pretty hard to get them to go on or off by accident. (Quite another matter if they're all worn out, or if you've installed some "trick" extended safety).

    If you are uncomfortable carrying this way, (and many individuals are, including myself), then I'd suggest getting rid of your 1911 altogether and getting something else for concealed carry.

    Alternatively, you "could" carry "Israeli style" with the hammer down on an EMPTY chamber. That would require you to manually rack the slide in a life and death emergency if you had to use the gun. While some people do carry this way, even in Israel, cops and soldiers in danger zones do not.

    Note that the reason I don't like carrying "cocked and locked" is NOT because I'm afraid I'm going to disengage the safety by mistake and fire the gun, or that carrying this way is intrinsically unsafe. Its just the opposite. . .I'm afraid that in an emergency, when my brain is fueled with adrenaline I'm going to FORGET to DISengage the safety, or alternatively, accidentally fumble it back onto "safe" when I need it to be in "fire" mode.

    -Try not to let the slide slam down with full force on an empty chamber, if you can help it. If you have to do this, just manually cushion the slide as it rides forward with your non-shooting hand.

    As mentioned, in theory impact of the slide against the frame under full recoil spring force can jar the guns' sear and damage it. The action of loading a live round into the chamber acts as a "cushion" and prevents this high-stress jarring. (Note that literally every time you FIRE the gun, the slide slams forward!). In practice, if you occasionally drop the slide empty, it probably won't hurt anything.
  • dfletcherdfletcher Member Posts: 8,173 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
    To reiterate and expand on what has already been said:

    1911 pistols are NOT safe to carry with a live round in the chamber and the hammer down. Likewise, the hammer "half cock" is intended as a secondary safety measure, NOT a way to carry a loaded pistol!



    I would draw a distinction between "Series 70" type 1911s and "Series 80" types that have a firing pin block. The latter having a firing pin block would, in my opinion, be safe with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. The firing pin is physically blocked by a steel plunger and neither a strike nor inertia will cause the gun to fire. Whether it is advisable to carry that way or safe to routinely lower the hammer by hand to get to that point is another subject, but in that condition I believe a Series 80 type would be safe.

    I don't think I would extend that to 1911s with heavy firing pin springs and titanium firing pins intended to prevent such accidental discharges, perhaps they work fine but without the physical block I think I'd play safe.

    Fully agree on the half cock notch. On my Defender it's not a notch but a "step" or ledge and pressing the trigger will release the hammer, although without enough power to detonate the primer I am told.
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