Can You ID This Ammo?

reload999

Can anyone here positively identify the ammo in the photo below? Date on the lower edge of the pack is 1890. Seems to say it is loaded with 3 grams of black powder? I'm wondering if the pack might be collectable so don't really want to tear it open to see what's inside. I was just given a large quantity of old ammo and reloading dies, etc., and I have 3 of these packs.

TIA for any info.

Texraid

10 rounds of 8mm Kropacheck wood tipped/blank ammo made at one of the main armaments factory in Lisbon Portugal. HTH.
Can?t comment on collectibility.

wallie

I would carefully untie the package and look inside
That string looks too new to be so old.

reload999

Wow, thanks. I've never even heard of that before. The packs were in a box with a bunch of 8mm Lebel rifle ammo so I wondered if it was similar. The string is clean, as is the paper, but it looks original to me.

rufe-snow

Photo off the net of blank ammo, from the same arsenal. Since it's from much later production, in the late 1920'S. My WAG it's loaded with smokeless powder.

charliemeyer007

I think the twine/paper looks original. I think the value will be on the low end this side of the pond.

reload999

Thanks everyone. Definitely some odd ammo.

heavyiron

Hi,

The following information you may find helpful - maybe not.

Fabrica de Polvora Barcarena was Portugal's black powder manufacturing facility and black powder ammunition loading and packaging facility. It was in operation from 1621 to 1988. Fabrica de Polvora literally translates to "gunpowder factory" in Portuguese. Ammunition from here was not headstamped.

There was also F?brica de P?lvora Chelas located in Chelas. Ammunition from here was headstamped with an AE or interlaced AE logo with stars. There were also 8x60R manufactured by George Roth of Austria with a GR with stars headstamp. There are several examples in my collection.

Now things are going to get confusing. There are basically three cartridges to speak of here including the (1) 8x60R Guedes M85 Portuguese, (2) the 8x60R from George Roth, and (3) the 8x56R Kropatschek.

Portugal ordered and apparently adopted the 8x60R Guedes rifle and cartridge in 1885 from Steyr according to COTW. However, before the rifles were delivered, Portugal waffled, canceled the Guedes rifle, and ordered the Kropatschek magazine rifle chambered for the the 8x60R. The ammunition was first supplied by George Roth of Austria with 8x60R dimensions. The Portuguese Guedes rifles are eventually sold by Steyr to the Boers.

In 1886 France develops and begins using the first smokeless in the 8mm Lebel. By 1888 all of Europe is either using or wants to use smokeless powder in their rifles. Portugal is no exception. It begins to use smokeless powder in its Kropatschek rifles in 8x60R. Portugal soon realizes that the smokeless powder is more efficient than black powder and that a 60mm case may be wasting a value metal -brass. The now Kropatschek cartridge is reduced from 60mm to 56mm. Uh-Oh? Different size cartridge and different size chamber?

No problem. Portugal is the only country to ever use the Kropatschek magazine rifle. No sporting rifles were ever mass produced for this cartridge. All are chambered for the 60mm cartridge. The Kropatschek 8x56R conveniently chambers into the Kropatchek rifles and the 8x60R and the 8x56R become and are in fact, interchangeable. Is the George Roth made cartridge also interchangeable? I don't know, but it is moot now.

Questions I would have about your packet:

From which Fabrica de Polvora factory did it originate?

Since the 1889/1890 are printed on the packet, these are probably black powder cartridges - or are they? My wild-* guess is they are, but that may depend on which factory actually made them.

What are the dimensions of cartridges therein?

What I can read from the packet says:

10 cartridges with bullet

Similar(ulated) 8. 1889

Charge 3 grams de polvora FN

Is there anymore? Does FN refer to Fabrique Nationale which was established in 1889? Is it just a trade name for black powder?

Given the timeline could this be a transitional packet of cartridges?

I would recommend you contact some people at the International Ammunition Association website. Somebody over there may be able to give you a better idea of what you have.

Best

Heavyiron

reload999

Thanks, heavyiron. I appreciate the info but can't answer your questions. What you see written on the paper is all I have or know.

heavyiron

Those are the questions I would ask on the IAA forum if I were you.

There are experts there from all over the world.

Good luck with your find.

Best

Heavyrion

Mobuck

If you open the package, you have just another busted package of obsolete ammo.