Selling without FFL questions.

jasonc14

I have heard too many FFL horror stories to want to get one.

My question for any current FFL holders are, is there a way to be a gun broker/consignment shop with a physical location but make the FFL transfers end of the deal happen at the desired location of a contracted FFL holder?

Also, do you need any special hazardous materials licenses/permits to sell ammunition?


Thoughts?

Semper Fi

mark christian

I am not entirely sure of your question. If you want use Gun Broker to sell guns in a manner which would otherwise require an FFL then the answer would be no. If you are buying guns with the intention of resale then you are acting as a dealer and it does not matter if the actual transfer takes place through a third party because you are the person actually making the sale. On the other hand if you have an FFL you are in no way obligated to make a single retail sale or meet face to face with a customer; all of your sales can be made on GB and then sent to other FFLs (including your own state) and they can transfer the guns to the buyer.

jasonc14

Mark,

Thanks for the reply. To clarify, my vision is I would get a location and it would be everything you would expect an indoor shooting range and gun shop to be. However, the firearm sale would not occur on location. Ideally, a customer could make a deposit to hold a weapon they wanted to buy that was on display, but the deal would be finalized via the desires of the customer and my FFL dealer.

Does that clear things up?

nmyers

I don't think that you understand how the firearms business works.

If you are buying & selling firearms with the objective of making a profit, then you are a firearms dealer; you must have an FFL to do this. What you call "finalizing" is just part of the process, & sometimes a BIG part of the process.

Another dealer doesn't need your help to sell firearms. He can sell guns at his premises, or through GunBroker.

Neal

tsr1965

jasonc14,

Mark and Neal, have given you great answers. Bottom line...if you are engauged in intentionally buying, and selling firearms for profit, then you need an FFL. If you get caught doing this by theBATFE's definition, then you will be made an example of.

Best

jasonc14

Thanks for the input. It appears that I will either reconsider getting an FFL or sell everything short of the lower receiver.

competentone

quote:Originally posted by jasonc14
Mark,

Thanks for the reply. To clarify, my vision is I would get a location and it would be everything you would expect an indoor shooting range and gun shop to be. However, the firearm sale would not occur on location. Ideally, a customer could make a deposit to hold a weapon they wanted to buy that was on display, but the deal would be finalized via the desires of the customer and my FFL dealer.

Does that clear things up?



I would think that "in theory" you could probably stay within the technical limitations of the law acting like a "showroom" for firearms, but "contract out" the legal transfers of the firearms through FFLs, but the big question would be, "Why?"

Exactly how do you think such a store would work as a business model?

Why would someone go to your "showroom shop" look at firearms, test fire one at your shooting range, but then have to drive to another shop if they wanted to purchase it? (Not to mention your time and expenses going to FFLs for the transfers, or the sort of scrutiny such a business model would attract from the ATF too.)

I think you are making some decision based on "FFL horror stories" that may not be completely accurate -- and are probably thinking your "margins" in the firearms business are a lot larger than they actually are. There simply wouldn't be enough "meat" in the transaction of a firearm to do what you're suggesting (if what you're suggesting could actually be done legally).

If you have capital and like the business end of firearms, but think you don't have any tolerance for the bureaucracy, maybe you should find a partner (perhaps someone who has a small shop already) who can handle the more bureaucratic elements of the business freeing you to focus on customers and inventory.

mark christian

If you are running a shooting range and plan to have an adjoining gun shop then you would be doing yourself a huge disservice (and lose a bunch of money) by not having that FFL. The paperwork for being a dealer is pretty basic stuff and it boils down to: Where did the gun come from and where did it go? Your situation is much different than the average person who wants to run his business out of his house (which is legal) because with the shooting range up and running the BATF will clearly see you ahve a legitimate business and their questions in the interview process will be few. You should receive your FFL very quickly.

There is money to be made here so don't pass it up due to some paperwork.

He Dog

And with a shooting range you will also have to comply with EPA requirements.

KEVD18

i think what he was saying was that he never really acquires the guns(although i think the atf would disagree). people bring them to the shop and display them. when someone decides they want that gun, the seller is given the buyers information and they complete the transaction out side of the shop.

in a way, its not unlike GunBroker. the op is acting as an intermediary while the real transfer takes place between the seller and buyer(and an ffl as necessary). im pretty sure its not legal, since you'd be storing guns that arent yours over night. and then as competentone said, there just isnt enough money in a typical deal to grease all these palms.