Pre 64 m70

vfsteve

I have a chance to buy a win. m70 308 cal. featherweight mfr.in 1959 it's 99% overall with a mint bore for 1200.00 this seems like a lot of money for a old gun. what makes this gun better than the new m70's ? thank's steve

vfsteve

Have a p64m70 with serial#3757xx what year was it born[?]

He Dog

It may not be better than the new model 70's but it is better than the post-64, pre um, about 1990 model 70's. When Olin sold Winchester the new owners changed a lot of manufacturing processes and design elements of the mod. 70's (and other models). Among other things they dropped the claw extractor, and in general the quality of fit and finish declined. In some parts of the country you still cannot sell Winchesters post 64. About 1990 the US Reating Arms Co. Which now owns Winchester returned to the pre-64 designs, brought back the claw extractor and has generally produced better products. As to the pre-64, the market is artificially inflated because the pre-64 is considered "the riflemans rifle" and by many to be the finest bolt action ever built. Hard to argue with that, they are good for production rifles though in fact they are not really uncommon, there were a lot of them built. Virtually all of them are considered collectable and many are "investment" rifles. It is unlikely the price will drop, and if you are young you will likely see the value increase even if you carefully use the rifle. Simply put, the price is the price of owning a legend, and for a 70 in fine condition $1200 is not unusual. The calibers were not produced in uniform numbers and rarer calibers like .257 Roberts can demand $1800 in that condition. Whether you buy or not, whether it is worth it to you or not is up to you. [This message has been edited by He Dog (edited 12-19-2001).]

paul1231

What HEDOG says is good as a general comment. However, to be specific on the pre-'64 m-70 .308: A lightweight is worth about $900, Maximum, IF it is a real one. A Standard weight .308 is exreemly rare and probably worth much more than $1200 IF original. So many of these model 70s in rare configuration have been faked that you have to have an expert evaluate each and every one. As a matter of fact, quite a large number of model 70s have been modified in one way or another that not many are collectable anymore. They are very good shooters, but otherwise, be careful of making any "investments" in this area.

He Dog

Paul that is a very interesting post. Modifications are easy to understand, but how are they faked?

paul1231

HEDOG: I used two sentences as there are two situations. One change is for legitimate purpose, the other isn't. 'Faked' is doing something fraudulent, something that is not ment to be detected. 'Modified' is putting things onto or removing things from an item and the modification is usually obvious. When a collectable, like the older m-70s are modified they loose their higher collector value. That's why m-70s as a group have two prices: as a shooter, and as a collector, the collector being worth more, sometimes much more, ONLY IF a modification hasn't occurred. The Blue Book pricing assumes no alterations!! A fake is taking (or creating) something and changing it in some way to make it appear to be something it isn't. For instance, a muzzle break on a pre-'64 m-70 would be a modification and not an attempt to fake. It's collector value would be lost. But, if someone mounted a lightweight .308 barrel on a pre-64 standard m-70, and attempted to sell it as an original, we have a fake, a fraud. In rare cases fakes are actually worth more than the item they 'grew out of', but vary rarely as much as the item they tried to appear to be. In any case, anyone who is putting down money for a firearm for its collector or investment value better know what's real and what isn't. After all, a $39.95 Turk m-98 will drop a deer just as fast as a $1200 model 70. Rule's m-70 book is a real eye opener.

He Dog

Thanks for the reply Paul, a good cautionairy tale for vfsteve as well. I guess it should be no surprise that there is some faking going on. I have certainly seen some altered or customized rifles, but it would not have occured to me to rechamber a rifle to make it rarer, say from .270 to .257 Roberts. I have not seen any in 95%+ condition in the last 3 or 4 years offered at less than a thousand or so.

vfsteve

Thanks for the great info. if I decide to go ahead with the pre 64 m-70 I;ll have a good gunsmith study it first. vfsteve p.s. whats the m-70 push feed system?

paul1231

A cartridge feed is how the rifle bolt is configured to grasp, hold, feed, and extract a cartridge into/from the chamber. A push feed system has a recessed bolt face and a spring loaded tiny finger(1/8th" grip) at the face that does this. Some people believe, with some justification, that this does not allow for sure cartridge control. The mauser (positive) feed system has a flat bolt face with a strong and much larger finger that holds the cartridge head against the face. As a matter of fact, the part(finger) that grips the shell has at least 1/4"to 3/8th" of a grip. In the heat of a hunt, when multiple shots are required, especially in dangerous game situations, you don't want to take any chances of having feeding/extraction problems. The general consensus is that the push feed system is not as dependable as the positive feed, mauser system. The reason Winchester went to the push feed was to save a few bucks in the manufacturing process. The public's disapproval was immediate and massive. But, I have several m-70s configured in both methods and have never had any problems with either, and wouldn't pass any m-70 up on this factor alone.

daddo

There are "standard" grade featherweights and "super" grade featherweights. The super grades can be worth 4 to 5 times that of the "standard". How can you tell the differance?Both of these were disc. in 1960.

Herschel

The Super Grade will have a black forearm tip, cheekpiece and more elaborate checkering. It will also have -Super Grade- stamped in the floorplate.