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Shipping problems

1022man1022man Member Posts: 512 ✭✭✭
edited February 2002 in Ask the Experts
I'll start by saying I'm not a dealer. I have a person who bought a handgun off the auction. He is now insisting on getting a copy of a dealers license. I have shipped several guns before, always the high $$ UPS route, and never had any problems. What am I supose to do about it? He has threatend to report me to the feds, I doubt if they'll do much. But since I don't have a license I just can't have him ship it back, and save me the head ache.
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Comments

  • old single shotsold single shots Member Posts: 3,594
    edited November -1
    I understand that you don't have an FFL.Do you have a drivers license?If so,why don,t you just get a photocopy and mail it to him.It sounds simple enough to me, but maybe i misunderstand the problem??
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  • RAT383RAT383 Member Posts: 26 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    As long as the person you sold your gun to has a FFL it should be OK. Tell him you'll send him a bill of sale as proof of where he got the gun from. You only need a lic to buy, not to sell you own private weapon.
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  • nmyers@home.comnmyers@home.com Member Posts: 205 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    As long as you have HIS FFL, everything that you did was legal.I suggest that you quote him the law. According to the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide (ATF P5300.4) page 136 para B8: "A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any state." All that the receiving licensee needs is your name and address, so the suggestion that you mail a photo of your drivers license is a good one.Neal
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  • Master7thSonMaster7thSon Member Posts: 229 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    1022man
    correct me if I'm wrong
    did you sell a handgun on the auction---ship it
    and now some some reason the buyer wishes to send the gun back to you
    is this the case?
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  • 1022man1022man Member Posts: 512 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I guess he contacted some one and they told him he was wrong. Now he just wants me to send a paper saying I legaly owned the pistol. It surprises me sometimes with the stupidity of some dealers.
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  • SpotterSpotter Member Posts: 74 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I think you did everything right if you mailed it to an FFL holder, who had him fill out all the yellow paperwork. I wouldn't mail him a copy of your driver's license, just a bill of sale. Why would you give your soc, if it's on there to an angry customer?
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  • SpotterSpotter Member Posts: 74 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Federal law (as cited above) allows any individual to sell a gun and to ship it (pistols must go UPS or FedEx long guns may go US Mail) to an FFL for transfer to the buyer.I understand the long guns (rifles) can go through US Post Office, but not pistols? I have information that pistols can go through the USPS if you fill out the 1581 (not sure of the number but *********** has a download of it). The form basically states that you are sending the handgun to an FFL holder, to the best of your knowledge. Am I wrong?
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  • nmyers@home.comnmyers@home.com Member Posts: 205 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sorry Spotter, you're wrong. On the same page cited above: "A nonlicenseee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. Handguns are not mailable."Neal
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  • SpotterSpotter Member Posts: 74 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    (F14) Who may ship firearms through the U. S. Postal Service? [Back]However, any person proposing to mail a handgun must file with the postmaster, at the time of mailing, an affidavit signed by the addressee stating that the addressee is qualified to receive the firearm, and theaffidavit must bear a certificate stating that the firearm is for the official use of the addressee. See thecurrent Postal Manual for details. The Postal Service recommends that all firearms be sent by registeredmail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on theoutside of any parcel containing firearms. (See also Question B8.) Well, I guess I was wrong.
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  • MFIMFI Member Posts: 7,899 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I dont know if its about the "stupidity" of some dealers. With the complexity of laws on the books and differing state laws on handguns some dealers figure that its "better to be safe then sorry" when it comes to accepting firearms. To risk your business for a $15-$25 transfer isnt worth the chance for some guys.
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  • HerschelHerschel Member Posts: 2,035 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Spotter, You are mixing in the regulations about selling/shipping a handgun to a LEO for official use. Neal Myers is exactly correct in what he posted. The post office will handle shipment of a handgun if mailed by a ffl dealer but not if mailed by a non ffl holder. I am using ffl to refer to a dealers license, not C & R as C & R license only conveys additional rights when buying or receiving.
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  • SpotterSpotter Member Posts: 74 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks. I think I'll go to the local post office and see some regs. Interesting issue.
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  • ATFATF Member Posts: 11,683 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    An FFL and ONLY an FFL may ship through THE POST OFFICE PERIOD....................
    As far as him reporting you tell him go ahead .Maybe they will take his license for being so stupid,ignorant or whatever.ATF[This message has been edited by ATF (edited 02-07-2002).][This message has been edited by ATF (edited 02-07-2002).]
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  • EOD GuyEOD Guy Member Posts: 931 ✭
    edited November -1
    ATFYou are partially correct. A dealer or manufacturer may mail any firearms through the mail to another dealer or manufacturer. Anyone may mail a rifle or shotgun as long as it is in compliance with BATF regulations.
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  • ATFATF Member Posts: 11,683 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I meant to say only an FFL can ship handguns through the Post Office.Sorry about that.
    ATF
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  • WIN52CWIN52C Member Posts: 36 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Interesting topic! I had a local gunshop owner tell me no more than 3 weeks ago that he could/would not recieve a revolver for me unless the seller had an FFL. I tried to explain that the seller didn't have to be a dealer to ship me the pistol, only the recieving person was required to have one. He said I was wrong and it was the law that the seller must be a dealer in order to ship it. I left the "dealers" shop and went to another shop and the owner there said no problem, and only charged $15 for recieving.Amazing what a mile and knowledge of the law can do for some people.
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  • BlancheeBlanchee Member Posts: 11 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    He can still un-do the deal if he wants. An FFL can RETURN a gun to a non-FFL and be legal. Non-FFL's can not ship handguns via USPO, but can ship long guns. FFL's can ship anything via USPO. Its that simple.
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  • lrarmsxlrarmsx Member Posts: 791 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    What most of you are missing is the difference between the law and the FFl covering his *. An individual may ship a gun to an FFL holder, but the individual often (read: should always)request a copy of the FFL before they can ship the gun. Most FFL dealers don't wish to give a signed copy of their FFL to a faceless individual several states away. That individual could be a gang member or other unsavory character who could in turn use that FFL to acquire firearms from a otherwise legitimate source. A dealer has reasonable confidence that a FFL dealer at the other end will maintain their license in a file and out of harms way. An individual could do a number of things with a signed FFL. Any gun aquired with that FFL would be tracked to that dealer who never even saw the gun who passed as him at a gun show or wherever and bought a dozen guns with his signed FFL. That individual may have then sold them to any 14 year old with the money to pay for one.I realize this is far fetched, but hopefully you all realize that that senario is a possibility. And that is the reason a FFL holder doesn't wish to receive a gun from a non-FFL holder from far away. It has nothing to do with the law, it has to do with the nature of man and what some would do if given the chance. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the past it was my understanding that the individual may ship to an FFL holder, but to be sure of that location actually being an FFL holder, the individual must first have a copy of the receiving FFL license to comply with the law. There is the predicament. If FFL holders didn't mind just everyone having a copy of their license, they'd keep a stack of them on their counter next to the business cards, and yearly catologs from the manufactures, so that anyone that wanted one could just take one or two or a handful. You never know when one might come in handy.
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  • SpotterSpotter Member Posts: 74 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well, thank you gents. I like this site because more often than not you get some hard answers. As far as my trip to the Post Office, the man himself didn't know squat about mailing guns.
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  • EOD GuyEOD Guy Member Posts: 931 ✭
    edited November -1
    Irarmsx, A nonlicensee is not required to obtain a copy of a dealer's FFL before shipped to him. The only time an exchange of licenses is legally required is in a transfer between two licensees. As far as dealers worrying about someone using their license, I think it's pure parinoia. The validity of a license and the licensee's business address can be verified on the ATF web site in just a few minutes and no self respecting dealer or distributer would ship to other than a legitimate business premises. If a dealer doesn't want to send a copy of his license, he should be willing to provide the first three and last five digits in his FFL number. The FFL can then be verified at the ATF eZcheck web site.
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  • lrarmsxlrarmsx Member Posts: 791 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It may not be required, but I do know of individuals demanding a copy of the dealers license before they would ship it to them, eventhought they themselves were not a license holder. As for the checking of the validity of a license on a web sight, thats kind of hard to do at a gunshow or a store when customers are backed up and you don't play on the net 24/7. When some one comes up and wants to buy several guns with "their" FFL, you can't always access the info to verify their status and even if the FFL is valid. It doesn't say whether this person is an authorized agent of this FFL. It has nothing to do with shipping the guns to the address on the FFL. It has to do with verifiying that the individual in front of you is an actual representative of that firm. And as for the paranoia, I have personal knowledge of forged licenses being used to ilegally buy and sell guns. Dates of expiration and address information was changed on the form. No it did not happen to me personally, but the guy whos license it did happen to, had a lot of explaining to do.
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  • JIM STARKJIM STARK Member Posts: 1,150 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Correct me if I am wrong, but are'nt we talking about a set of rules backed up by law and a set of laws themselves... If you hold an FFL you aer subjecrt to both laws and the BATF rules... A non- FFL is NOT sub ject to BATF rules unless they match or parrallel the Law?????
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  • bwabwa Member Posts: 224 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I can't answer Jim, but something else that a couple of you said caught my attention. It was stated more than once that a FFL holder IS PERMITTED to ship a handgun through the post office. I just bought one a month ago, and was told by the dealer that he could not do that, that NextDayAir with UPS was the only route. I'm wondering if I might have saved some money if the USPS had shipped it.
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  • EOD GuyEOD Guy Member Posts: 931 ✭
    edited November -1
    Jim,The BATF rules ARE the law as codified in 27CFR. When Congress passes a law they authorize the Executive Branch to write regulations for enorcement of the law. If you will compare the regulations with the comparable section of the law, the wording will frequently be identical. The regulations must be posted in the Federal Register and a public comment period allowed before a final ruling is issued, also in the Federal Register. All the various Codes of Federal Regulations are nothing but special editions of the Federal Register which compile all the various regulations concerning a department of the Executive Branch. 27CFR concerns the Department of the Treasury, 49CFR concerns the Department of Transportation, 20CFR concerns the Environmental Protection Agency, etc, etc.If you are cited for a violation of the Gun Control Act, the citation will quote 27CFR.
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  • YankeeClipperYankeeClipper Member Posts: 669 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Try Fed X .Remember the don't ask don't tell policy?
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