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M1 GARAND STOCK CODES

upinyeupinye Member Posts: 68
edited November 2002 in Ask the Experts
HELLLLLO...Can someone help me understand the mystery of the Garand stock codes..cartouches or whatever? And how about the crossed cannons..I am interested in WW2 production rifles only ..I acquired a 1943 Springfield Garand that I hoped was mostly original,however the stock does not have the crossed cannons or other STANDOUT markings . It does have a small P on the bottom of the pistol grip that I can see and maybe some other indiscrimanate stamps???? What the ##%#!! does it all mean??? Did all WW2 production Garands have cartouched stocks?? and by the way, what does cartouched mean??? Any info appreciated steve

steve

Comments

  • nmyersnmyers Member Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Yes, all WWII M1s were stamped with a cartouche when accepted by the War Dept. A cartouche at that time was a boxed set of letters stamped on the stock with a steel die. The first letters wre the manufacturer (SA), and the second set were the initials of the Commanding Officer of Springfield Armory (EMcF or GAW in 1943). The P on the pistol grip is the firing proof.

    The stock you have could be original; it may have been arsenal sanded and refinished and may have arsenal rebuild stamps on it. Or, it could be an arsenal replacement stock. Few WWII M1's escaped rebuild, so it is likely that most of the rifle is not original. But, occasionally one does turn up.

    The Defense Acceptance Seal (eagle & stars) was not introduced until 1952.

    An inexpensive but useful reference book is "M1 Garand 1936 to 1957" by Poyer & Riesch. You need to be able to identify all the other parts in your rifle, too. Original stocks are available, but expensive; it's not worth replacing unless the rest of the rifle is original.

    Neal



    Edited by - nmyers on 11/30/2002 09:24:49
  • mark christianmark christian Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 24,511 ******
    edited November -1
    Hello Steve, cartouched is a term used to describe a special type of marking, this term has been in use for centuries and can describe anything from the stampings found on gunstocks to the royal markings in an Egyptian tomb. We will confine our discussion to the markings found on WWII M1 Garand Rifle issued stocks- all of which were walnut.

    The first marking you'll notice is the Ordanance Department Coutouche-the crossed cannons. There were two sizes: A large 3/4" version which was used on early serial numbers (below about 500,000- lot of variables) and a smaller 1/2" size used on all later production. The sizes I mentioned are approximate, the actual sizes are .72" and .44", but these can vary due to stock wear. A smaller version of this stamp may also appear on the bottom of the pistol grip and it is assumed that this meant the stock was Ordance Dept. property, but not yet stamped for use with a serial numbered rifle. When it was matched up with a rifle it received the full size stamp. I have a couple of these stocks "on the loose", the jury is still out.

    The "P" inside a cicrle on the grip is the proof marking which indicates the rifle had been proof fired and had been accepted for service. A "P" without a circle or a "P" inside a square box is a rebuild stamp from the arsenal which overhauled/rebuilt the rifle and re-proofed it. Other marking on the side of the buttstock like RRAD are rebuild markings- Red River Arsenal and Depot is a fairly common one and I have a few rebuilt M1 with that marking- and a dozen others as well. There were many depots doing post war rebuilds.

    A springfield M1 Garand rifle would have either of two stock cartouhes': S.A. E.McF. or S.A. G.A.W.. The SA stands for- I'll bet you know this- Springfield Armory. The other markings are the initials of the commander of the armory at the date the rifle was produced, more or less, there was some variance on this. E. McF. was the stamp for Col. Earl McFarland and G.A.W. was for Col. George A. Woody. There were other commanders with their own stamps and Winchester had their own as well. The full details of the armory commanders is beyond the scope of this post.

    All original M1 Garands left the factory cartouched- except for a few which were presentation peices, gifts, or thefts (don't think that did not happen!). If I had the serial number of yoour rifle I could give you the correct marking for your stock as well as other components like the barrel and bolt. I am an M1 fanactic so feel free to pile on the questions- I love this stuff!

    Mark T. Christian
  • upinyeupinye Member Posts: 68
    edited November -1
    Mr. Christian, You are the man I need to talk to! Would you please Email me at [email protected] Thanks, Steve

    steve
  • mazo kidmazo kid Member Posts: 648 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I can understand why some or all the cartouches might not be present: when I went in to the Army 'way back in '56. we were issued M-1s and part of the "training" consisted of spending hours in the evenings scraping down the stocks with a piece of glass bottle to get rid of scratches, dents, etc. and then re-oiling them. Emery
  • v35v35 Member Posts: 13,200
    edited November -1
    Upinyou,
    Subsequent to WW2 many thousands of M-1s saw plenty of service in Korea and with foreign governments. It's unreasonable to hope to find an M-1 that has seen use with all its'original parts at this point in time. Since the parts aren't serial numbered you can never know, even if the makers'proof mark is correct. Inspections often involved takedown of a group of rifles with parts placed in piles of like parts for gaging. There was no attempt to reassemble parts in the rifles they came out of so stock markings very likely dont reflect the barrelled action or the whole gun.
    By this date, it's probable the operating rod and gas cylinder have been replaced at least once, followed by the barrel.
    Replacement of any part except the barrel or receiver is done by Division Ordnance with no stock markings made on completion of repairs. Depot rebuild implies replacement of fixed barrels except for BARs, where Division Ordnance was issued the spare barrels and jaws.
    Unless an M1 was stolen early in its' history or it had extremely limited use in an armory somewhere, I see little likelyhood of it having the parts it was issued with.
    Calling an obviously mismatched U.S. small arm a parts gun is unfair. It probably had a lot of honorable service.
    Who is to say that during wartime conditions parts weren't shipped between manufacturers to make up shortages?
  • upinyeupinye Member Posts: 68
    edited November -1
    NMYERS ..any idea where I could purchase a copy of the book you mentioned? Thank you and thanks to ALL who took time to reply!!

    steve
  • nmyersnmyers Member Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Try www.scott-duff.com or www.gunshowbooks.com.

    Neal
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