Iver Johnson Model I.D. Question

creedmoormatch

I am seeking assistance in identifying the "Model" of a Iver Johnson "Safety Hammer Automatic Revolver" with the following particulars;

1) This is a 5 shot "Break Top" revolver chambered in the .38 S&W cartridge with a large frame and a six inch barrel length. The grip panels are made of black composition and retained with two thru screws and they are of a decorative design with the I.J. "Owl Head" logo and the "eyes are looking at you". The panels are larger than what would be on a pocket revolver and they have a flat bottom Western style.;

2) The Serial Number is located on the bottom of the trigger guard as being " 546XX " and also located on the left side of the grip frame behind the grip panel as being " T 546XX ";

3) The bottom of the grip frame is marked " June 16 96, Aug 25 96, Sept 16 04 Pats Pending ", and;

4) The right side of the grip frame behind the grip panel is marked with the number " 5";

5) The main spring is a single leaf spring;

6) The barrel top flat is marked " IVER JOHNSON'S ARMS & CYCLE WORKS FITCHBURG, MASS. U.S.A. "

I was particularly interested in hearing back from Mr. W.E. Goforth, who I understand frequents these pages. My question specifically asks if the above described piece is the Model Two and therefore designed for Black Powder ammunition; or is it a Model Three and designed for smokeless ammunition ? Also, does the serial reveal the year of manufacture ?

If you are able, please also provide a "ball park" current value of this piece considering it is in perfect mechanical operation with approximately 50 % of the original Blue finish remaining.

Thanking you in advance for your expert assistance.

C.M.M.

b.goforth

your Second model safety automatic hammer revolver serial number T546XX was manufactured either in late 1907 or early 1908 (not exactly sure what the cut out off number was between 1907 and 1908). in the two years 1907 and 1908 there were approx. 100,000 made. the oversized hard rubber grips (called "Perfect Grips") were an option on the second model. from your description of the eyes looking at you i would guess the grips are replacement meant for a third model.

SECOND MODEL SAFETY AUTOMATIC HAMMER REVOLVER
(Black Powder Cartridges)

---

1896-1908
LARGE FRAME AND SMALL FRAME VERSIONS USES HAMMER THE HAMMER ACTION: Double top post barrel latch, nickel finish standard, blue optional, hard rubber grip panels with Owls head at top. Hammer the Hammer action, two frame sizes, and three calibers. Standard barrel length: small frame 3 inches, large frame 3 ? inches; Calibers: small frame .22 rimfire 7 rounds cylinder capacity, .32 centerfire 5 rounds cylinder capacity, large frame .38 centerfire 5 rounds cylinder capacity; Weight: small frame with 3 inch barrel .22 rimfire 12 ounces, .32 centerfire 12 ? ounces, large frame with 3 ? inch barrel 17? ounces; Frame height: small frame 3 ? inches, large frame 3 7/8 inches; Frame length: small frame 4 3/26 inches, large frame 5 inches; Overall length: small frame with 3 inch barrel 6 3/8 inches, large frame with 3 ? inch barrel 7 3/8 inches. Only difference between the first and second model is the barrel latch. Main serial number location on left side of grip frame grips must be removed to see. The Second Model features a double top post barrel latch, flat leaf hammer spring and two cross pins in the lower frame.
VALUE: 100%=$275 60%=$135
For revolvers equipped with Bourne Knuckleduster add 100%

bill

creedmoormatch

Bill, Thanks very much for your taking the time to assist me with this identification. I am looking forward to reading you publication on the subject in the near future.

My best,
Creedmoormatch

creedmoormatch

Bill, I was interested in knowing if you, or anyone else, has ever done a comparison of the Iver Johnson Large Frame 38 S&W Caliber Break Top revolver with regards to the Third Model as compared to the Second Model ?

I see in the literature that the Second Model was designed for black powder ammunition, whereas the Third Model was designed for smokeless powder ammunition.

My question is therefore, what changes did the Iver Johnson factory designers make to the Third Model, either in materials utilized, dimension changes or to otherwise increase the pressure strength of the Third Model over that of the Second Model?

For instance, is the steel higher quality, is the cylinder diameter larger, is the frame wall thicker over that of the Second model ? For the point of this discussion, please disregard the coil main spring change, since I'm attempting to find changes which may have taken place in order to accommodate smokless powder ammunition.

Your help would be appreciated.

Creedmoormatch

b.goforth

the difference between second and third models were all in the type of springs used and the type of metal used.

third model used all coil or wire type springs and was made of validum steel as per the 1910 catalog. some of the internal parts were specially harden and there was a slight difference in the shape of the frame.

from about 1904 until the third model came out the comapny put a warning on the boxes of the second model that stated "this revolver not adapted for smokeless powder". and even very third model had a warning to used "semi-smokeless" powder cartridges. this warning proved unwarrented as the u.s. navy tested and purchased 1500 safety automatic hammer third models in 1911. all of which were still in the navy's inventory at the beginning of wwII. there is a section about these revolvers in my book.

but if the truth be known i only know of two safety automatic revolvers that have given up the ghost because of using smokeless powder. one first model and one second model. i am sure however there are more. usually what your find is a second model with a streched frame and worn out internal parts rather than a blown up revolver. because the factory does not recommend using smokeless powder in second models (factory label on boxes). i strongly recommend not using smokeless powder in any first or second model safety automatic revolvers.

bill

creedmoormatch

Thanks Bill:

b.goforth wrote; " quote:Some of the internal parts were specially hardened and there was a slight difference in the shape of the frame "

Bill, I would appreciate it if you could advise be further with the question of whether or not the 38 S&W 5 shot cylinder from a Third Model top break I. J. revolver may be installed in a Second Model barrel/frame assembly ? Would the "slight difference" in the shape of the (Third Model) frame prevent the swapping of the Third Model cylinder into the Second Model ?

The question arises out of the fact that a Third Model cylinder would have been fabricated from Validum alloy steel per your earlier answer concerning the smokeless revolver.

Thanks much Bill

Creedmoormatch

b.goforth

one of the changes to the third was an automatic cylinder stop. the second model has a free wheeling cylinder. the cylinders from a second model and a third model are NOT interchangeable.
bill