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Ammo source for 8x60R Kropatschek 1886
TWalker
Member Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭✭✭
Anyone know a source for smokeless or black powder ammo for a 8x60R Kropatschek 1886 carbine? Thanks for any help. This is NOT a request to buy; I'm just looking for a manufacturer or importer to contact so I can find out what is available for this gun.
Comments
quote:Historically, there were TWO 8mm Kropatschek Cartridges, but ONLY ONE Kropatschek CHAMBER.
Time Line: Portugal orders the (M1885) Guedes Rifle from Steyr, which offers a new, improved velocity 8mm (8x60R Guedes) cartridge derived from the 11mm Gras/Kropatschek cartridge, which they had been supplying to France ( M78 and M84 Naval Gras Kropatshcek Rifle, 11mm.).
At the same time, Steyr was trialling the same 8mm cartridge in a new, Repeating rifle, of Kropatshcek Tube mag design, the M1886, also in 8x60R chambering.
Portugal changes its mind, and orders the repeating magazine rifle instead...leaving Steyr with the already-made Guedes Rifles ( which were eventually sold to the Boers in 1899-1900).
Initial ammunition supplied ( by G Roth) is 8x60R dimensions.
IN 1886, smokeless Powder is used for the first time (France), by 1888, most European countries have adopted, or are looking at adopting, some form of smokeless Powder in their cartridges. Portugal also decides to use smokeless Powder in its Kropatshcek Cartrideges, and Final adoption of a smokeless load is gazetted in 1899. It is found also, that the full 60mm of case length, required for Black Powder use, is wasteful of brass in the new Smokeless Load, and so the case length is reduced to 56mm... meanwhile the rifles remain the same...in anycase, Portugal is trialing ( since 1896) a 6,5 Calibre rifle from Steyr ( initially the M92/3 Romanian Turnbolt Mannlicher, then the M1900 Mannlicher Schoenauer, and eventually the M1904 Vergueiro, by DWM).
There is NO difference in use of either the 8x60R dimensioned case and the 8x56R case in a Kropatshcek... the same goes for the Guedes Rifle ( even though some authors say the cartridges are different, given the wide tolerances in BP derived cartridge cases, they are all functionally interchangeable. Also, because NO rifle has ever been made to fit ONLY a 8x56R Krop. length case...all the Chambers are 60mm Plus Long.
Also, there is no need to worry, because the Kropatschek 8mm cartridge was Unique to Portugal, there are NO other rifles of any design which chambers this cartridge ( except the Defunct Guedes, and there are precious few of these which survived the Boer War.).
If you really want to be a Perfectionist, use Buffalo Arms 60mm cases for use in a Guedes or a Kropatshcek in Black Powder, and a 56 Case for use in a Kropatschek in Smokeless...
I don't Know what ammo was supplied to the Boers with the Guedes rifles...could have been old BP ammo ( thus would have been "60mm" long) or could have been new manufacture Smokeless, and thus would have been 56 mm Long.
G. Roth supplied the major part of Portugal's ammo needs to beyond 1900, when FA ( Fabrica de Armas of the Portuguese Gov't) began 8x56R production.
Most Portugese-made Kropatschek ammo for the 1920s is 56mm cased stuff. Even the Blanks (BP) made from 1900 date GR cases are 56mm long.
In a nutshell....use 56mm cases for all of them. ( and you can make them easily from .348 Win cases...FLS, NO trim, and bevel head slightly to correctly fit Krop Bolt face...for Guedes, no need to bevel.)
Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics Technical Services ( Making 8x56R Krop cases for over 20 years)
Down Under.