HK USP .45 Hi-Cap Magazines

Blokey

What's the deal with HK USP .45 factory hi-cap mags (12 round)? Are they legal to own? Apparently, I heard that there are two types: 1) LEO marked (OK, those are illegal for civilians to own).2) Unmarked. Were they not available to civilians before the ban therefore any out there would have been imported illegally after the ban?

JudgeColt

You have hit on one of the most perplexing issues there is concerning pre- and post-ban magazines. By law and by definition, all post-ban magazines holding more than ten rounds have to be marked "Law Enforcement Only" (LEO). Therefore, any magazine holding more than ten rounds no so marked is presumably pre-ban, and legal. I discovered the wonderful H-K PRO site seeking the same answer you are seeking. I started my thread with the above analysis and it went on for pages as everyone weighed in on the issue. It comes up regularly on that site.My analysis, which is just my personal opinion and is not offered as legal advice, is that there are probably three kinds of H-K USP .45 magazines holding more than ten rounds. First, there was some evidence offered that some unknown amount of 12-round magazines were made before 9-13-94 in anticipation of the ban. I think someone even found a magaine article outlining development of the USP .45 before 9-13-94, so presumably there would have been pre-ban magazines under that theory as well. Tne next theory, which I offered after reading the H-K official web site, is the one I believe accounts for most of the 12-round USP .45 magazines seen. The H-K web site used to have a statement regarding 12-round .45USP and SOCOM magazines. (I just ckecked the site and the issue of USP .45 and SOCOM 12-round magazines is no longer there for some reason.) It made it clear that there were never any civilian SOCOM 12-round magazines, and, if there are any in civilian hands, they are stolen from the military. OK, clear enough. Then came the loophole big enough to drive a M1 tank through. It said something like: "No 12-round .45 USP unrestricted magazines were ever intentionally released on the civilain market." Obviously, that means there could have been 12-round magazines UNINTENTIONALLY released on the market. I think that is what happened. I think a whole bunch of unmarked USP 12-round .45 magazines were made accidently (or maybe on purpose even) without the restricted markings. Whoever made the mistake (if it was a mistake) may have released them on the civilian market without corporate knowledge to CYA and save his or her job, or it was a corporate decision, surely to be disavowed, to release the magazines to recover the costs of the mistake (or to give the USP .45 a more competitive magazine capacity with pre-ban Glocks and Paras). Either way, an unknown number of unmarked magazines would be on the market with no restrictive markings. The third way is for illegal import of post-ban but unmarked magazines sold in other parts of the world, maybe even Canada from what I have heard. These would be illegal to import, but how would it be proved if the magazines are totally unmarked? One clue may be that some 12-round magazines are date-coded with what MAY be post 9-13-94 dates. There is some controversy about whether the magazine date codes are the same as the firearm date codes. Many believe they are not. Any 12-round magazines with two-letter codes stamped on them, usually near the H-K markings, may be post-ban magazines of unknown history, even though they are not marked with the LEO restirctive markings. So the bottom line would seem to be that, if by definition, unmarked magazines are pre-ban and legal for civilian ownership, then an unmarked, unrestricted H-K USP .45 12-round magazine is legal to own and sell, except in those states with legislation otherwise. A date-coded USP .45 12-round magazine would pose more risk, but, again, "no LEO markings = legal" by definition. Chances of prosecution seem very remote, but not totally impossible. I suspect the only likely way for prosecution would be if the gun were used in some major crime where there would be a reason to pile on the charges. I would guess the issue would never come up unless the ATF somehow got into the case, since most local law enforcement would probably not know the difference. Ultimately, it is up to each individual to assess the risk and make his or her own decision.

Blokey

JudgeColt,Thanks for the detailed response. Even with the legal disclaimer, I find your conclusion to be entirely plausible and it helped me better understand this ambiguous issue.I guess that's why you're the Judge!

bikrprchr

Blokey, I too was wondering about the 12 round mag issue, but then after looking around, discovered that the going rate for these 12 round jewels in $100.00 per unit. I had to ask myself if those 2 extra rounds were worth $50.00 each. I decided the 10's would do until the "right" deal came along.Judge, I was wondering, in reading your explanation, do the USP and SOCOM mags interchange. Forgive my lack of knowledge, I just recently became interested in the USP line and know very little. Thanks for any insight you might offer.[This message has been edited by bikrprchr (edited 01-01-2002).]

Blokey

Yes, those 2 extra rounds seem costly, not only when buying the magazine, but possibly later on if one decided to take the risk and carry the pistol with it; it just doesn't seem worth it. I guess owning one of these mags would be more of a "conversation" piece or for use at the range than a practical item for carry.Anyway, it would seem that if you're in a situation that requires 12+1 rounds of .45ACP to resolve, you're probably in WAY over your head!

JudgeColt

It is my understanding that the magazine bodies on the USP .45 and SOCOM are the same, but the floor plates are different. I am told that the USP magazine will work in the SOCOM, but the SOCOM will not work in the USP without changing the floor plate. Changing the floor plates will allow a conversion from a USP magazine to a SOCOM and from a SOCOM to a USP.As far as the 12-round USP magazines being expensive, there are a lot of magazines that cost $100 or more. The law of supply and demand is pretty rigid when fixing price. Personally, I think the 20% increase in magazine capacity is worth the price, considering that 10-round USP magazines are fairly expensive in their own right.

surfit

Sorry to butt in Judge but magaine fit is just the opposite that you have said.The Socom magazine will fit any model HK 45cal handgun (USP, Tactical, or Socom). But only the Socom magazine will fit the Socom. The handle of the Socom comes down alittle farther in the front than both the Tactial or USP models -- so it's magazine has a base with a small indentation to allow for this prefect flush fit. Using the Socom mag in the other models will work but the little indent on the base will still show.The magazines are also completely interchangable between the USP and Tactial models. Only difference here is that the Tactial base has an extended finger-grip base.

JudgeColt

OPPS! ME BAD!I got up on the wrong side of the bed that day and that caused me to turn the floor plate issue around when I knew better. SORRY! Thanks for the correction surfit. NEVER hesitate to butt in if an error can be corrected. We all learn that way, and bad information is corrected before it can do harm.