Derringer kits

mjgcarpenter

Hi, I was wondering if anyone here had ever bought or at least shot one of the derringer kits sold here. I have access to machinist tooling(lathe, mill, edm) so I can't imagine it would be difficult to finish. I am not planning on carrying this as a protection piece. It sounds kind of neat to have. Any help is appreciated.......

thunderbolt

If you mean the FMJ .410/.45 save yourself the trouble and buy a complete gun legally.If you get the kit and complete it, you could be charged with manufacturing a firearm or possession of an unregistered weapon.

kimberkid

thunderbolt,You might want to check the BATF web site, an individual can manufacture firearms for their own use, however they can not be sold or distrubuted. I beleive you are limited to manufacturing 1 firearm per year, and it must comform to all current regulations ie 922r as well as others ... It would be illegal to manufacture a Pre-Ban type AR-15, pre-ban being defined as more than 2 of the following: detachable mag, threaded barrel, flash hider, bayo lug, pistol grip, folding or retractable stock ... but it is legal to make one for your personal use provided it is in a post-ban configuration.

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GUN CONTROL: If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention!kimberkid@gunbroker.zzn.com [This message has been edited by kimberkid (edited 01-04-2002).]

thunderbolt

I know the BATF site says you can manufacture one gun per year. I also know if you are caught with a gun in your pocket on which a form 4477 has not been completed,you will most likely lose the gun or go to jail. Again, these are cheap guns that simply aren't worth the trouble.

azgunnut2@yahoo.com

well , so far everyone who has replyed has been somewhat correct...these are cheap and kind of an odd item , I do believe that there are plenty of better choices out there for a "carry" gun , but thats another issue..the statement about a "4473" not being filled out is off base,you can in most non-comunistic states buy a gun from an individual (leagally) without the 4473 - it is for "dealers"...the problem you might very well have is if "caught" with this item that you built is to convince the local yocals why it has no serial no#...Yes I have done these before...just some thoughts !!!!d.a. stearns gunsmith & cop .........azgunnut2@yahoo.com......................

thunderbolt

Let me try to clarify my position. You build a derringer from a kit, "legally"for your own use, (with no serial number and no 4473 to show legal ownership) and only build one per year. During a traffic stopyour gun gets found in your vehicle. No serial number and no 4473 to check (by calling the dealer) almost guarantees you cooling your heels in jail while the LEO checks your story. Also, if you've been making guns for several years andfor any reason it is discovered there's 6 or8 guns in the back bedroom without serial numbers you'll have a fun time proving you only made one a year. It may be legal on paper, but for the quality of the gun it is not worth the trouble. Now if someone has a good cheap Colt Peacemaker kit.....!

mjgcarpenter

Thanks for your help but like I said it won't be for carrying. Has anyone ever shot or made one?

robsguns

What form is the 4473? And you kind of threw me here. I do know that selling a pistol without going through a FFL holder is a felony in MO, even if you are a private citizen selling to another one, so is the 4473 something about making one and not selling one? Just wanted to know. Rob.

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SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC

boeboe

It is really amazing the amount of misinformation provided by people in a column called "ask the experts". I think that many people are influenced by either laws in their own individual states, or influenced by stereotypical anti-gun balderdash that tends to make people conform to the way the anti-gun forces would LIKE to have things. If it is legal to build one firearm per year for your own personal use, why not? If you don't exercise the rights you have, you may well loose them due to the lack of use. Deciding not to build a firearm for your personal use just because it does not conform to the way certain individuals in the anti-gun forces want things to be is caving into them. Perhaps thunderbolt lives in a state that requires some form or registration of fierearms, and is thinking there is some kind of Federal regulation along those lines. Many states still allow the transfer of handguns, rifles, and shotguns by private individuals to other private individuals without a 4473 (yellow form) ever entering the picture. Thinking that a law enforcement officer would call the FFL to verify ownership of a firearm is far fetched and simply doesn't happen in my state of residence. I'm sure it would be the exception rather than the rule on the Federal level. There IS a Federal number law enforcement can call to verify that a gun is not reported stolen. There ISN'T a Federal system that law enforcement can call up to find out if a particular serial number of gun belongs to a particular individual. That system just doesn't exist on the Federal level. They would have no reason to call any FFL about it, unless there was some meaningless State law that required it. In this nation, there are thousands and thousands and thousands of legally owned firearms that have never seen a yellow form. There are many thousands more that, although their initial sale was recorded on a yellow form, through the course of following private firearms transactions the yellow form is pretty much meaningless. If I were ever asked about a firearm I bought from an FFL dealer on a yellow 25 years ago and sold so long ago, I'd have to laugh. I can't even remember all the guns I've owned, much less who I sold them to.Further, there are many, many thousands of legally owned firearms that do not have serial numbers. An example being many that were manufactured prior to 1969. Several manufacturers did not put serial numbers on their .22 caliber firearms before that date. Many more personally manufactured firearms exist without serial numbers which are legal.It occurs to me, at 50 years old, and having been involved with firearms since the age of 10, that I have NEVER had a law enforcement officer check to see what the serial numbers were on any firearm I've ever owned, much less checked to see if there were any there at all! And I have displayed legal firearms without serial numbers quite publicly at gun shows, fired them at public ranges and such without ever being questions by law enforcement.As far as the derringer kits not being worth it, but perhaps a "Colt Peacemaker" kit would, I have seen on auction at gunbroker 80% complete receivers and parts kits for AR15s, 1911s, Beretta/Taurus 9mm, Sigs, M11s, M10s, semi-auto versions of the 1919 Browning, etc., etc, all of which do not possess serial numbers and do not require an FFL to transfer. They can be purchased by private individuals and made into complete and legal firearms without all that much work. Which would be more likely to be scrutinized by law enforcement? A homemade derringer or a homemade AR15? If confiscated to be checked out, which would you rather be without for a while? There is something in thunderbolt's logic I just can't see.As far as being able to prove that those homemade guns without serial numbers in the back room were all made "one per year", this is still America. The burden of proof is still with the prosecutor. People may try to make you feel differently, but the prosecutor still has to prove you did something wrong. If you didn't do anything wrong, it's difficult (but possibly not impossible) to prove otherwise. That is still a point of law.I am a proponent of people building their own firearms. Over the years I've known several people who have made legal configuration homemade firearms, including (but not limited to) derringers from the kits. I've fired derringers made from the kits. They are not difficult to complete for the average home handyman. They are great fun to shoot and very sturdy. No doubt, there are better choices for personal protection. That is pretty obvious, but the .410 shells loaded with triple 0 buck make a very nice torso sized pattern at 10 feet when fired from one of those derringers. If I had no other choice and was confroned by an intruder in a dark hallway coming to my bedroom, I'd much rather have one of those derringers in each hand than a knife and/or a club. But there are other choices to making your own firearms. If you are a half way good machinist and have access to some simple machine tools, go ahead and buy an 80% complete receiver and build yourself an AR15 or a 1911 in .45ACP. Or even a semi-auto version of a Browning Automatic Rifle! These are all possibilities, and all quite legal. The means and materials are available to do it, and pop up from time to time on auction.But don't listen to people who think you should sacrifice more of your Second Ammendment rights than you already have, just because something seems out of the ordinary, or is different than the way they think things should be.

azgunnut2@yahoo.com

well , as I answer again , yes you can do this , and it is leagl in most non-comunistic(calf.,mass,n.y.,.n.j. ect..)states to do so , and as the book long comment before states , its better than a rock and is doneall the time ,,,yes I have shot one and "built" one as well as worked on them !!!they are fun and kind of neat , not my first personal choice for carry but , better than a rock...I kind of enjoy messing with this type of "stuff" at times ,,, ("building"),,,good luck on this & let us know if you have any questions !!!! azgunnut2@yahoo.com.....

thunderbolt

It may not happen in your state, but I have been contacted by local police officers in regards to form 4473. I'll admit it was more common back before computers entered the scene. I did not refer to firearms built "in the good old days" before serial numbers. I was referring to having a batch of modern derringers without serial numbers and the difficulty of trying to prove when they were made. Nor did I ever state there was a federal law preventing one from assembling these kits. As a cop, what would you do if you caught an individual with one of theseguns? There's no serial number to run andno proof of date of manufacture, so what do you do? Now I was kidding about the ColtPeacemaker kit. However, you mention building AR15 kits, etc. If you're telling me you built your own AR15 receiver from scratch, my hat is off to you as you're ahead of many professional gunsmiths in resources and skills. As to expert opinions, I've shot, handled and sold thefactory versions of these derringers and I called it like I see it. I couldn'tbuild a better one for the same money, but these are and remain cheap guns.