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Antiques ?

KnifecollectorKnifecollector Member Posts: 3,267 ✭✭✭
edited May 2002 in Ask the Experts
I was under the assumption that any firearm made before 1898 is considered antique as far as BATF is concerned. I see some auctions for antique guns made in 1880's and the seller says it must ship to a FFL holder because the gun is capable of firing modern ammo. Is the seller correct? Or am I misinformed? Not taking in consideration various state laws, just in general. Thanks.

Comments

  • nmyersnmyers Member Posts: 16,887 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    According to the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide (ATF P 5300.4), any firearm manufactured in or before 1898 is considered an "antique firearm".

    Those who request an FFL for antique firearms either do not know the law, or are afraid of the unknown.

    Neal
  • bullelkbullelk Member Posts: 679 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Neal,
    I just read the regs on antiques, and it's pretty damn confusing.
    Without typing out the whole paragraph, it says something like this.
    In the 2000 Regs. Page 6, paragraph 16.

    (16) The term "antique firearms' means-

    (A)any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898:or

    (B)any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica-

    (i)is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or

    (ii)uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

    How would you interpret that?

    Gino

    "If All Else Fails, Read The Directions"
    If you can understand the damn things!
  • Tailgunner1954Tailgunner1954 Member Posts: 7,734 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Note i and ii are in referance to Para B "replicas" only, NOT to Para A "origionals"

    Some guys like a mag full of lead, I still prefer one round to the head.
  • nmyersnmyers Member Posts: 16,887 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Feel like you're studying for your bar exam yet?

    Gino, that reference is correct, but you also need to read sect 9 on page 120:
    "...An antique firearm as defined in both GCA and NFA is exempt from all of the provisions and restrictions contained in both laws. Consequently, such an antique firearm may be bought, sold, transported, shipped, etc., without regard to the requirements of these laws..."

    Neal
  • He DogHe Dog Member Posts: 51,593 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    So, you are saying a Win model 94 manufactured in 1896, and chambered for .30-30 can be transfered with out going through an FFL, while the same model manufactured in 1948 or 1998 cannot? Does that make sense? Oh, yeah, Federal Government regulations, I remember.
  • woodsrunnerwoodsrunner Member Posts: 5,378 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Don't forget local laws!! In NY if you can buy ammunition for it it's considered modern. It doesn't matter when it was made. If I own an antique handgun they must be listed on my pistol permit. To get them off my permit it has to go through a dealer. Several states NY, NJ, MD, CA have laws stricter than federal law when it pertains to antiques.

    Woods

    How big a boy are ya?
  • bullelkbullelk Member Posts: 679 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Neal,
    I wouldn't be a lawyer if my life depended on it. I like this side of the courtrooms better.

    I just read that paragraph on page 120, and it looks exactly the same to me. Maybe I missed something?

    Tailgunner,
    This is the way I looked at that. Start with paragraph A.
    Any firearm, before 1898 AND;
    (B) any replica.

    They bring the word AND in there to confuse you I guess.


    Am I reading it wrong? Thanks.
    Gino

    "If All Else Fails, Read The Directions"



    Edited by - bullelk on 05/26/2002 14:37:02
  • EOD GuyEOD Guy Member Posts: 931
    edited November -1
    The "and" is standard protocall in Federal regulations to indicate that the following paragraph is also included in the definition. The subparagraphs under replicas indicates limitations on replicas being considered in the antique category, i.e., using current commercial ammunition.

    BATF realizes that similar firearms manufactured a year apart are in different catagories. They did not just decide to put that in the regulation. That's how Congress wrote the law.

    Edited by - EOD Guy on 05/26/2002 16:16:46
  • KnifecollectorKnifecollector Member Posts: 3,267 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Just for the sake of argument lets say Remington just made a "replica" of the model 591 chambered for the 5mm magnum. Since 5 mm magnum is not currently manufactured in the U.S. and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. Could this pass as a antique? I think He Dog is correct. A model 94 made in 1896 can be legally traded without a FFL, regardless of caliber, but one made in 1899 can not. Am I correct? Thanks guys for all the info.
  • bullelkbullelk Member Posts: 679 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    So, EODGUY, Was I correct in your opinion?
    Gino

    "If All Else Fails, Read The Directions"
  • bullelkbullelk Member Posts: 679 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    nmyers,
    Neal,
    I just picked up on something, after reading it very carefully. On page 120, it reads; in or before 1898; AND
    and on page 6; in or before 1898; OR.
    I guess that would mean to include or either one.
    Agree or disagree?
    Gino

    "If All Else Fails, Read The Directions"
  • joeaf1911a1joeaf1911a1 Member Posts: 2,962 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I think you better listen to nmyers. He set me straight on this
    subject along with where to find the laws on it. I realize the difference in original antiques and reproductions make a lot of difference, about the availability of commercially available shells.
    If in doubt, send it to a FFL dealer by all means. However, POSSIBLY
    state laws for handguns may vary on "original Antiques". Also, the
    USPS has their regulations (on their web site) concerning this, and
    other matters on firearms shipping from liscensee and non-liscensee
    to liscensee and non-liscensee on interstate shipment. And one other
    thing. It is not the date of Patent, but the year of manufacture.
    And Neal, (nmyers) thanks a lot for your help in the past. And if I
    am wrong, please correct me.
  • bullelkbullelk Member Posts: 679 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Joeaf1911af,
    I'm not telling Neal he is wrong or trying to pick an argument with him.
    All I'm saying is the FFL regulations are very confusing. You have to watch for the way the goverment words everything in their laws. Even from talking to some of the ATF agents, they have to read it a few times to understand it. You should know that by now.
    I've been a dealer for for over 20 years,(I'm haven't been since 1997) and was constantly looking up the regs.

    The tricky part is where it says,
    Any FIREARM, AND/OR any replica that uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

    Sorry if I sound like I'm busting chops, but I'm not. Better to be safe than sorry.

    Gino

    "If All Else Fails, Read The Directions" (If you can figure them out too)



    Edited by - bullelk on 05/27/2002 11:27:59
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