A C&R Licensee May Use the USPS to Ship to Another C&R Licensee

l-girl

Like many government regulations, there is often a difference in terminology between agencies. While the postal regulations do indeed say "dealer or manufacturer," they also allow for unloaded "curios and museum pieces" to be shipped via the US mail. Additionally, USPS leaves it up to BATF to make distinctions with regard to firearms classification.Under BATF terminology, a Curio & Relic licensee has the same mailing privileges as a Class I licensee (dealer or manufacturer), provided he is dealing with another C&R licensee. Detailed below are excerpts from the BATF's website http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/relics/index.htm. I spoke with Andrew Sheldrick of the Washington DC ATF office (202 927-5966) and he confirmed that C&R license holders may ship C&R eligible firearms to another C&R licensee via the USPS. For handguns, the Post Office does require completion of their Form 1508 "Statement of Shipper of Firearms."I hope this is helpful.F14) Who may ship firearms through the U. S. Postal Service? [Back]Federal firearm licensees may deposit an unloaded firearm in the mails for conveyance to any officer, employee, agent, or watchman who is eligible under 18 U. S. C. 1715 to receive pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person for use in connection with his or her official duties. However, any person proposing to mail a handgun must file with the postmaster, at the time of mailing, an affidavit signed by the addressee stating that the addressee is qualified to receive the firearm, and the affidavit must bear a certificate stating that the firearm is for the official use of the addressee. See the current Postal Manual for details. The Postal Service recommends that all firearms be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. (See also Question B8.) G. COLLECTORS (G1) Is there a specific license which permits a collector to acquire firearms in interstate commerce? [Back]Yes. The person may obtain a collector's license; however, this license applies only to transactions in curio or relic firearms. [27 CFR 178.41( c), (d), 178.50( b) and 178.93]

22WRF

Thank you very much I-girl for your time and trouble to resolve this issue.Now if my C&R would only get here so I could buy something.

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NRA Pistol InstructorP'cola. FL Home of the Blue Angels"Arms like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunder in awe and perserve order" Thomas PainenIshnabe'k

EOD Guy

I-girl,The FAQ you quoted is for shipment of handguns to certain individuals for their official use. It has no bearing on shipment of handguns by C&R license holders. The Domestic Mail Manual however, is quite clear that the only others who may mail handguns are dealers and manufacturers. The BATF is not the place to get a clarification of postal regulations. Also, a verbal opinion is not worth the paper it is printed on.

l-girl

Dear EOD Guy.Do you work for the USPS? If so, how come my local postmaster respects the interpretation above?Are you a lawyer? Do you understand that when laws are not clear they must be interpreted by the individuals responsible for enforcing them? I think a postmaster and a BATF Inspector in Washington D.C. are good enough for me.Also, please explain your source material for saying that a C&R license holder is not "a federal licensee" for purposes of using the USPS for shipping to another C&R holder. You are correct in that it is easy to pull verbiage out of context to present a case, but you appear to be unwilling to accept the fact that the government agency responsible for enforcing firearm laws endorses the position stated above.Gentle readers: This a forum; draw your own conclusions.

EOD Guy

I-girl,I am not an attorney but I have been working with Federal regulations and regulators for most of my adult life (which is a lot longer than I care to admit). When a regulation is specific (i.e., licensed dealer or licensed manufacturer) that is exactly what it means. If the regulation applies to a class of individuals (i.e., licensees) it will so state. Believe it or not, there are protocols for writing regulations that cover these very points.The reason your postmaster accepts your interpretation is that he/she is wrong (my opinion). It is very common for those at the the local level, be they postal employees or BATF agents to wrongly interpret regulations. That's why you can get letters of clarification from Postal Service or BATF Headquarters in Washington. I have written several to various Federal agencies over my career and have always received replies, although not alway promptly. As far as shipping firearms through the mail, BATF defers to the Postal Service. By the same token, the Postal Service will defer to BATF the determination on the legality of the actual transfer of the firearm.Also, I never said a C&R license holder was not a federal licensee, only that they have no special status under the Postal Regulations, other than being able to receive C&R rifles and shotguns. As to a source, it's hard to prove a negative.I have stated my case and that is what I will observe. Like you said, this is a forum and there is no obligation to accept my opinion. Any advice you receive here is only worth what you paid for it.I realize there have been differences of opinion on this matter on other forums also. I think I'll ask for a clarification from Postal Service Hq and will post it when I get an answer, along with an apology if I'm wrong. If I am, it won't be the first time.Sincerely,Rich

l-girl

Dear EOD Guy,We have many things in common: the same first name, a lifetime of dealing with regulations (I am a tax accountant), and a healthy skepticism when it comes to dealing with regulators.There is an interesting book called "The Death of Common Sense" which addresses some of the problems we all face dealing with bureaucrats and unclear and often conflicting rules.As a point of common sense, why would the USPS not allow a licensed C&R holder to ship to another federally licensed C&R holder via the US mail? What purpose would such a prohibition serve? Both parties are federally licensed and must maintain bound record books. Both parties must abide by BATF rules regarding the shipment.This whole issue is a direct result of common carriers such as UPS and Airborne being unable to control the dishonesty of their employess who were stealing packages of firearms. Hence, they invoked silly rules requiring the most expensive mode of shipping and documentation, in effect punishing patrons for the dishonesty of their own employees.Sorry, I have digressed, but I think you see my point. Aside from being arbitary and capricious, there is no good reason why the USPS, or the BATF, would prohibit using the US mail as a carrier for shipments of C&R's between two license holders. I could be wrong, too. But in the context of equity and common sense, which is what laws are intended to maintain, I believe I am right, along with the BATF in D.C and the local postmaster.Best regards to you and thank you for contributing to this discussion.Rich

EOD Guy

I-girl,I agree with you but one thing I learned a long time ago was to ignore logic and common sense when dealing with the regulations.Rich

MPinkston

I-Girl, you are right about their not being any logic to the C&R licensee not being able to ship USPS. However, the distinction I see is that a C&R licensee IS NOT a LICENSED DEALER as is specified in postal regulations. To deal in C&R firearms one must have a type 01 license.Mark

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aguncollector@yahoo.com

l-girl

Dear Mpinkston,That wording was exactly the reason why I called the BATF. I talked to two inspectors: one in Cincinnati and a senior inspector in DC and they both told me the same thing. For purposes of mailing curios and relics via USPS, a C&R licensee has the same rights as a Class I licensee, in spite of the "dealer or manufacturer" language. USPS makes a specific statement that "curios and museum" pieces can be sent via the mail, but then does not provide a definition of what a "curio" is. Does it fall under their definition of an "anitique?" USPS also refers all long gun interpretations to the BATF, but makes no mention of handguns.Because of these inconsistencies, I called the BATF. If you present your local postmaster with a copy of your C&R, the recipients C&R, and fill out Form 1508, and the postmaster lets you mail the firearm, have you broken a law? I don't know the answer to that.I think the previous writer has an excellent point: get it in writing, which is what I intend to do.Best regards,RichFrom the USPS Manual .43 Firearms431 Definitions431.1 FirearmA firearm is defined as any device (including a starter gun) that is designed, or may readily be converted, to expel a projectile by an explosion, a spring, or other mechanical action, or by air or gas pressure with sufficient force to be used as a weapon.431.2 HandgunPistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (for example, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles) are defined as handguns. The following definitions apply:a. Pistol or Revolver. A pistol or revolver is a handgun designed to be fired by the use of a single hand.b. Short-Barreled Rifle. A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches long is defined as a short-barreled rifle. This includes any weapon made from a rifle (by alteration or modification) resulting in an overall length of less than 26 inches.c. Short-Barreled Shotgun. A shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches long is defined as a short-barreled shotgun. This includes any weapon made from a shotgun (by alteration or modification) resulting in an overall length of less than 26 inches.431.3 Antique FirearmAn antique firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) is any firearm manufactured in or before 1898, or any replica of such a firearm, that meets either of the following conditions:a. It is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition.b. It uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, which is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available through ordinary commercial trade channels.431.4 Rifles and ShotgunsA rifle is a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is 16 inches or more in length. A shotgun has a barrel of 18 inches or more in length. Rifles and shotguns have an overall length of 26 inches or greater and cannot be capable of being concealed on a person.431.5 Licensed Manufacturer/Licensed DealerA manufacturer of firearms or a bona fide dealer in firearms is one duly licensed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF), U.S. Department of the Treasury, under the Gun Control Act of 1968.432 Mailability432.1 GeneralThe following conditions apply:a. Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (referred to as handguns) are nonmailable in the domestic mail except as permitted in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM C024.1.0.b. The disassembled parts of a handgun or other type of nonmailable firearm that can be readily reassembled as a weapon are nonmailable except as permitted in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM C024.1.0 or C024.2.0.c. Unloaded antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces are generally permitted as specified in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM C024.2.0.d. Unloaded rifles and shotguns may be mailed if the mailer fully complies with the Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618) and 18 U.S.C. 921. The mailer may be required to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not excluded from mailing because of the restrictions in 431.2b and c.432.2 PS Form 1508PS Form 1508, Statement by Shipper of Firearms, must be completed by each firearm manufacturer or dealer who deposits firearms for mailing. The form must be filed with the postmaster of the post office of mailing.Exhibit 432.1Mailability Requirements for FirearmsHandguns may be mailed by a licensed manufacturer or dealer, an authorized federal agent, or an authorized state, territory, or district agent ONLY when addressed to one of the following addressee categories for use in official duties: Addressee Affidavit Requirementsa. Officer of Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, Marine Corps, or organized reserve corps.b. Officer of National Guard or militia of a state, district, or territory.Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and certificate signed by commanding officer. c. Officer of the federal government or a state, district, or territory whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or commitment.d. USPS employees specifically authorized by the chief postal inspector.e. Officer or employee of a U.S. enforcement agency.Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and certificate signed by head of agency employing the addressee. f. Watchman engaged in guarding federal, state, district, or territory property.Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and certificate signed by chief clerk of department, bureau, or branch of government agency employing the addressee. g. Purchasing agent or other designated member of an agency employing officers and personnel included in c, d, or e above.Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and certificate signed by the head of agency stating the firearm is to be used by an officer or employee cited in c, d, or e of the opposite column. Unloaded Handgun Mailer must be licensed manufacturer or dealer mailing to another licensed manufacturer or dealer. Addressee is FBI (or it's director) or scientific lab or crime detection bureau of any agency whose members are federal law enforcement officers, or state, district, or territory officers authorized to serve warrants of arrest or commitment. Manufacturers or dealers must complete PS form 1508, Statement by Shipper of firearms, and file with postmaster.Postmasters may forward an unsatisfactory mailer statement to their RCSC for a ruling. Unloaded Rifle or ShotgunShort-barrelled rifles or shotguns that can be concealed on a person are nonmailable.Mailer must comply with Gun Control Act of 1968 and with the state and local laws. USPS may require mailer to open parcel or give written certification that weapon is unloaded and not concealable. Registered mail service is recommended. Unloaded Antique FirearmUnloaded antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces are acceptable for mailing.

EOD Guy

I-girl,I've written a letter to the Postal Service requesting clarification. I'll let you know the result. I would much rather that you be correct and me wrong. It would make life easier.Rich

l-girl

Dear EOD,Thank you. You are a good man to do that. It may help to focus on the BATF's interpretation of who a "licensee" is for purposes of the postal regulations.For all our sakes, I hope we get an equitable answer.Best wishes to you, I think I'll go read the Internal Revenue Code for a while.Rich