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leo mags

KiddKidd Member Posts: 4 ✭✭
edited March 2002 in Ask the Experts
Is it leagel to purchase stamped LEO/GOV USE ONLY mags at a gun show from a private owner and re-sell them..

Comments

  • KiddKidd Member Posts: 4 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I was reading another post and a reply about LEO mags brought up a question. A friend of mine bought a Sig P226 from a LEO. One of the mags was a hi-cap LEO. How would you go about getting rid of it? Can you just bring it to your local LE agency without fear of legal reprecussions (sp)?

    -Marcus

    ****You'll find I'm full of surprises.-Luke Skywalker (The Empire Strikes Back)****
  • niklasalniklasal Member Posts: 776 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    There was a post not too long ago on this topic. There was a lot of debate, but end result was NO, it is not legal. In the words of one of our members (sorry i forget who), "You probably won't get jail time, but will probably get it confiscated and a fine. Also, if you ever get busted for something larger, it is just more against you"Geez, I learn a lot from you guys!
    [email protected]
  • leeblackmanleeblackman Member Posts: 5,683
    edited November -1
    Its one of them really grey undefined area's. The law says no, but people do it anyway and no one makes to big a fuss about it.My advise is, if you do decide to get LEO mags, don't go advertising to the world you have them, and don't carry them if you CCW.
  • austin247austin247 Member Posts: 400 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ah, another Clinton-era law rears its ugly head. I don't agree with the 10-round maximum, but the fact remains that when a magazine says "Law enforcement/Govt. use only", it's illegal to for a private citizen to own, or for a dealer to sell to anyone but a LEO. A LEO is required to get a letter on department letterhead (which states that the magazines are not for resale), signed by a supervisor to purchase a LEO magazine. And a dealer is not supposed to sell LEO magazines to anyone but a LEO with a letter. Since you never know exactly what will happen to you in this situation until it's too late, I would say it's not worth it.
  • KiddKidd Member Posts: 4 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Guy's Thanks for your replies, I have seen these at gun shows by civilians NOT DEALERS.. and was wondring if it was leagel to purchase them. I take from your replies it is NOT LEAGEL and will not purchase them.. My self I fail to see the advantage to 2 or 3 extra rounds in a clip, with proper training and shooting on a regular bases say 2 times a month do the extra rounds really matter??? Thanks Much Kidd
  • JustCJustC Member, Moderator Posts: 16,036 ******
    edited November -1
    kidd, if you aren't gonna buy em, let me know where they are, cause I want em. It is not illegal to own them, it is illegal to USE or INSTALL them. Just like the full auto trigger groups. You can buy all you want, you just can't install them in your semi auto gun. So, if you just want to keep them in storage or for a "collectible" then you are truly in the grey area. Get my meaning?
  • Gordian BladeGordian Blade Member Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I always feel funny replying to things in "Ask the Experts" because I'm nowhere near an expert unlike many on this board, but here goes anyway. As I read NY State law, it is against the law just to own a hi-cap mag (11+) made after 1994. The ones made before 1994 wouldn't say LEO only.Now, as to whether hi-cap mags are really useful or just for "fun" is another question. First, for some weapons, the natural capacity of the magazine will be greater than 10 just because of the dimensions. For example, a magazine that fits inside a full-size 9mm semi pistol can usually hold 12 or 14 rounds in pre-ban configuration. So if it is less than that to meet a legal requirement, it is diminishing the natural capacity of the firearm.I have a firearm whose natural capacity is 12. I have 3 pre-ban magazines for it, a 12, a 14, and a 20. (The 14 and 20 stick out.) I find that I tend to use the 12 at the range, and even then I tend to load it 10 at a time because the ammo comes in boxes of 50 and I'm shooting for accuracy (such as my ability allows). I tried shooting 20 as fast as I could pull the trigger while maintaining some kind of aim. That was fun once, now I have it out of my system.Would a hi-cap magazine be useful if you found yourself in a firefight with bad guys? I did a calculation of one 30 rd mag versus three 10 rd mags. If you are aiming the shots reasonably (not just spray and pray) and you have practiced changing out the mags, you can maintain about 80% the rate of fire with 10 rd mags as you can with 30 rd mags. Then there's the issue of the stress of being in the real situation -- you may be great at changing the magazine at the range, but in real life getting shot at it would be very different. In that case, the larger mag would be a big help because you would have one less thing to worry about.When you talk about home defense, then there's another consideration. Obviously, if you need a firearm for home defense, the mag needs to be loaded and ready to go even if it isn't in the gun, or it is useless. There's no way you could reliably and quickly load a magazine under the stress of a home invasion. But if you keep a 10 rd mag loaded with 10 rds for an extended period of time, you will weaken the spring. If you have a 20 rd mag loaded with 10 rds, there is much less stress on the spring. You should rotate which mag you keep loaded.There's also the psychological deterrent effect of having a hi-cap mag installed in your firearm that can't be denied. Most defensive uses of firearms don't involve shooting them, only showing them.My conclusion is that the average civilian does indeed have legitimate uses for hi-cap mags, not to mention I think it is our right under the 2nd Amendment. The bad guys certainly don't care if they obey the ban on hi-cap mags or not, and they have the advantage of surprise and maybe numbers.The current ban on new hi-cap mags will sunset in 2004. There is going to be a fight about renewing it. The way things are going with Campaign Finance Reform (= trash the 1st Amendment) I'm not optimistic. I can imagine in a worst-case political scenario they will try to eliminate even the pre-ban mags.
  • dheffleydheffley Member Posts: 25,000
    edited November -1
    Interesting point. In my CHL class in Texas, the instructor made a special effort to cover magazines. According to the law in Texas, If you legally defend youself with your weapon and it has an illegal magazine, You would be charged with a felony. Illegal magazine were as follows;1 A low cap mag that had been modified to hold more than 10 rounds.2 A homemade or custom mag that would hold more than 10 rounds.3 A mag designed for use in a weapon that was modified to fit another weapon.4 Any mag marked LEO, GOV, or any combination of the above.5 A mag that was illegally imported from another country.6 Any mag that was used in a weapon it was not intended for.
    Save, research, then buy the best.Join the NRA, NOW!Teach them young, teach them safe, teach them forever, but most of all, teach them to VOTE!
  • JustCJustC Member, Moderator Posts: 16,036 ******
    edited November -1
    heres the skinny, LEO use only is STAMPED in the magazine. I think you all can figure out the rest. voila,....pre-ban clips. I have never seen anyone arrested or even questioned for having them.On second thought, I already own them, they took that money out of my paycheck last week.[This message has been edited by JustC (edited 03-01-2002).]
  • JustCJustC Member, Moderator Posts: 16,036 ******
    edited November -1
    I am not being disrespectful here my friend, we agree on many things and I wish to keep doing so, but,...how much of the taxpayers dollars do you think the ATF would spend, to x-ray a magazine which may or may not have been marked. The burden of proof has to be fulfilled. If you are at the range, with a non-marked, and completely standard looking magazine, how do you see them even getting the idea to x-ray the magazine? If they ask to see it on the range, tell em to F**k off, store the magazine elsewhere, and wait for the knock at the door. Come on in and look around fellas. But that is assuming it will ever get that far.I won't even get into the metal stamp angle.Most of the agents and LEO's I hunt or shoot with could care less. It is just a little extra prize if you are arrested for doing something else or using a gun in a crime, which I have NO interest in at all.
  • Gordian BladeGordian Blade Member Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    JustC, enjoy living a little on the wild side, do we? I believe that owning a hi-cap magazine is our right under the 2nd Amendment, but a lot of people in positions of power don't agree with me. I have heard of cases where people at ranges have had their pre-ban hi-caps and semis confiscated and they were invited to come down and prove they were legal after all.My hat's off to your courage in giving BATF the finger. I'll be happy to chuck $1 into the hat I just took off and pass it around for your legal defense fund.
  • JustCJustC Member, Moderator Posts: 16,036 ******
    edited November -1
    Gordian, I appreciate your support. I am not in any way advocating the blatent "blowing off" of the laws which are just and appropriate. I will however say this, let's just take for example the two LEO's discussed in the post about the 60yr old woman at her home, are they more stable than I am? Have THEY proven themselves in some way more worthy of owning high cap magazines than myself? I think not. I havn't needed my buddy to walk any 110lb woman to the car. a little diplomacy in that situation would have gone a long way. I simply have a knack at finding the loopholes. here is one for example; you and I know, police trade-ins can be purchased all the time by civilians, do these not come with magazines? See what I mean. On one hand, I can go to the gunshop and find a trade in 92 beretta with clips, but I can't go and buy a clip from one that the police had and stamped? Sounds like idiocy entwined in beaurocracy to me. Incidently, after a year or so, can I get that legal fund mailed to me even if I don't get Waco'd. heheheI don't consider this particular point to be on the wild side. Now, if I were offering to file your sear for you for $20 plus shipping, now that............is WAYYYYYon the wild side. (By the way, to all the trolls and thugs, that is not an advertisement to file sears, I don't even know how) The laws are so obscured and overwritten, I get a different answer to the same question every time I call the ATF. I have seen the ATF agent dumbfounded by a question at the meeting for ffl holders. If they can't get their own verbage down, why should I? grey is grey
  • RocklobsterRocklobster Member Posts: 7,060
    edited November -1
    It's also against federal law to possess parts necessary to construct a select-fire firearm or convert a firearm to select fire,whether they're installed or not,unless you have a Class 3 FFL or federal tax stamp.
  • JustCJustC Member, Moderator Posts: 16,036 ******
    edited November -1
    rocklobster, another example of nobody knowing the answer. I called the ATF to ask if I could buy a full auto ar-15 trigger group from a magazine, and was told by two different agents, at two different times, that as long as it is not installed, and not in the same building, they were perfectly legal. The add even stated it will mail, yes that's right mail them to your house. I don't think The Gun List would allow a company to carry on illegal activities within it's covers. Of course, I could be wrong about that.
  • Gordian BladeGordian Blade Member Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    JustC, I admit you have some good points about the current laws making no sense and purchasing police trade-ins. That brings up another good point, how are they going to trade in their post-1994 LEO Only stuff? Maybe wait for 2004 and keep their fingers crossed that the ban sunsets?As for the money in my hat, it's a race to see if you get hauled off before I get enough to buy my next gun. If the gun wins, then you'll have to wait until I fill it up again.[This message has been edited by Gordian Blade (edited 03-01-2002).]
  • RocklobsterRocklobster Member Posts: 7,060
    edited November -1
    JustC-read Title 2 of the Gun Control Act of 1968,also known as the National Firearms Act(NFA). 28 USC sec.5801 et seq.
  • JustCJustC Member, Moderator Posts: 16,036 ******
    edited November -1
    ok, where is my friggin post??????
  • JustCJustC Member, Moderator Posts: 16,036 ******
    edited November -1
    OK, I guess it isn't coming. I am finished here. thanks for the fun guys, I've been edited. See you on other posts. Gordian, thanks for the covering fire.Saxon, you here?devils advocate is fun!!!! hehehehe
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