.45-70 vs .45-90 vs .45-110

FestusHaycreek

I am considering having a .45-70 rechambered to .45-110. My question is can I still shoot the .45-70 and or .45-90 loads in the .45-110?? The gun is a NEF H&R 1871 model CR-1871 Buffalo Classic.

32wsl

Each of these calibers has it's own rate of twist for optimum performance. Yes, you can fire standard 45-70/90s in a 110, but the bullets should be seated way out. You may probably get some leading and other minor problems associated with freebore. Also, the 45-110 (this is a Sharps cartridge) has a bullet of .451 caliber, not the .457s of the Winchester mode.You should address this point with the Smith doing the chambering work, and be awear of it if you intend to purchace bullets/molds for the 110.

Iroquois Scout

The .45-70 and the .45-90 can both be fired in the .45-110 chamber. However,to do so over a long period of time runs the risk of pitting the chamber in front of the shorter cartridge. In my experience the .45-110 27/8 cartridge does not handle smokeless powder very well and is at it's best with black powder. The cartridge is also known as the .45-100 27/8 the differance being in the weight of the bullet. The .45-110 useing a bullet of 420 grains or less while the .45-100 used bullets of 500 grains or more. In slightly more then 40 years of buying and selling Sharps rifles I have never seen a Sharps with a bore as small as .451. This is an old wives tale that has been past along for many years. All of the .45 caliber Sharps rifles that I have sluged the bores of measured .456-.460. The .451 diameter bullet is for the .44-90 25/8. I have a model 1874 target rifle in this caliber in which the land diameter is .446 and the groove diameter is .451. Some .45 caliber slugs meant for paper patching may have been this small,but would have required four wraps of paper to bring them up to proper size. The rifleing twist rate of all .45 caliber Sharps rifles regardless of case length is 1 turn in 18 inches. I hope that this of some help to you in makeing your decision.

MIKE WISKEY

JUST A SUGESTION, IF YOU WANT TO LOAD MORE BLACK POWDER THAN THE .45/70 WILL HOLD HAVE YOUR 'SMITH' LONG THROAT THE .45/70 CHAMBER AND SEAT THE BULLETS TO MATCH. IF YOUR SHOOTING ONLY SMOKELESS POWDER, DON'T CHANGE IT AS THE .45/70 HAS MORE CAPACITY THAT THE RIFLE WILL HANDLE ANYWAY.

Dupont

Iroquois Scout has it pretty much on the button!
A lot of fellows with modern 45-70 rifles think they gain more "Umph"
rechambering to the longer 45 cases. in a sence this is true. But that only works if you load them with black powder!! Through the fast change over to smokeless powder certain cartridges did not work well with the new powder! Hence the long life of the 45-70. It managed the change quite well. You can duplex loads for the longer cases (i.e. very small priming charge of smokeless, rest of case loaded with black) with good results as long as it is a modern action. I personally would not recomend this with an antique.

BTW- Seems to me the Handi rifles have a 1 in 20 twist? You might want to check this out before you decided to rechamber.

Good luck

Of course I can play the piano, as long as it has pedals!

32wsl

Festus, some of us depend upon written material from factories and known experts in the trade. For twist rates for the sharps .45 cal see Barns "Cartridges of the World". You will note there are several rates. For bullet diameters of the same Sharps bullet, see the same reference, as well the older Ideal (reloading tool and mold catilogs and booklets, such as #15). These folks normally do not traffic in "old wive's tails". On the other hand, you can't argue with first hand experience, except perhaps to question its debth. In any case, your Buffalo Classic is made for the Government cartridge, most likely in 1-20 or 1-22 twist, thou it is possible it could be anywhere from 18-22. The point here is that velocity, weight of bullet, and bullet hardness are major factors in selecting optimum twist. The Winchester Company, during 1885-1910, conducted many tests on .45 cal twist rates up to the monster 45-120. They had the m1885 and m1886 to sell, and listed "preferable" rates for each of the cartridges. In that you only want to rechamber, you are stuck with the twist you have. Your wish to rechamber, and fire 3 different cartridges, while a 'can do' option, has the disadvantages that your accuracy will suffer in all cases, and barrel life will be shortened if the bullet doesn't seat in the throat. I understand that while firing 45-70s (and perhaps 60's,82's and 85's) in some 45-90 rifles in the past was done, it was not every-day practice. I suspect it was because of problems getting the proper ammo.

Iroquois Scout

It may be of intrust to the forum that while he was alive,Frank Barnes,the author of "Cartridges of the World" admitted that there were numerous errors in the book particulary in the section on antique cartridges. He further said that it had been impossible for him to actually inspect and measure every cartridge in the book and therefore he was forced in many cases to rely on previously published material. In the antique cartridge section he relied heavily on the works of L.D.Satterlee. Satterlee is known to be full of errors. About 1940,in an article on Sharps cartridges,Satterlee describes how he carefully removed the paper patch from a bullet in order to get the "true" bullet diameter without realizing that the true bullet diameter is measured OVER the patch as it is the paper patch that takes the rifleing. I know that Barnes wanted to eliminate as many of the errors in the book as he could but passed away before the work was hardly started. Since that time several sections have been added to the book but an update of the original material has never been undertaken. Still,all shooters owe Frank Barnes a tremendous debt of gratitude for what he accomplished. As to the twist rates in .45 caliber Sharps rifles,all I can say is get a number of original rifles together and check for youself. Iam well aware that Winchester and Remington used different twist rates as did the U.S. Government. As an aside you may be interested to know that the Government only used the 1 in 22 twist rate until sometime between 1879 and 1884 when they went to a quicker twist in order to stabilize the 500gr.bullet.

32wsl

I hope Festus isn't overly confused.I think we all agree that routinely shooting the 3 sizes of cartridges in a 45-110 chamber isn't the best thing to do. Now, onto Mr Barnes: I have no personal knowledge of this gentleman as to his technique of gathering datum, or verifing it. I do know that it is not unexpected that bad information is passed down from one hand to the next, from and by supposed experts, without verification. An all to common problem for historians. But, how about the Ideal Manufacturing Company. Could they be part of the problem? I don't know how many of their .451 Sharps moulds they produced and sold from 1880-1930 (Aprox), but they designed and marketed at least 12 different types. It was for this reason that I pointed out that if a mold was to be had, to make sure it was for the .45 caliber of the Buffalo Classic Barrel, not the Sharps (the 45-110 chambering). To quote the Company's Handbook #15 (written before Mr Satterlee or Mr Barnes were born):" .451 is the standard size of bullets for the original .45 calibre Sharp rifle. There were many rifles, however, made by the Sharp Company towards the last of their existence, that were bored, rifled, and chambered for the .45-70 U.S. Government cartridge, which requires a ball .457 in diameter. This mix up has caused much trouble amoung owners of these valuable rifles.... Be sure that you know the size of your barrel when you order moulds or tools, it may save you trouble. "

v35

In 1951 when Government surplus 45-70 black powder ammo was very cheap, My 1886 Winchester in 45-90 WCF clearly outshot three or four long barrelled Trapdoor Springfields. All were using this ammo at a 100 yard range.

Iroquois Scout

Well 32wsl,all that I can tell you is that there are no less then seven .45 caliber Sharps in the rack as I type this. Five are Model 1874 side hammer rifles and two are Sharps-Borchardt. Calibers range from .45-75 420 21/10 Sharps straight(.45-70 Gov.) to the .45-100 550 27/8 Sharps straight. Also a rifle which should be included is the center piece of my collection,a like new Model 1877 No.1 Creedmoor target rifle in caliber .45-100 550 2.4 Sharps straight(.45-90). None of these rifles have a groove diameter of less then .456. At one time I owned two Model 1874 Business Rifles in the 161xxx serial number range and where chambered for the .45-70 that had groove diameters of .460. Since you seem to place great trust in the printed word,I would bet that you beleive that the Civil War percussion Sharps rifles and carbines were .52 caliber. Just a hint,they weren't. As I have said before,get access to several original rifles and check for yourself.

FestusHaycreek

Yes, I am a little confused but I do have a lot more info to think about thanks to all of you that responded. I was referring to the .45-70 govt shooting smokeless powder in my original question. I thought this caliber used a .458 bullet, as well as the .45-90?? The gunsmith that I asked about rechambering didn't mention any difference in bullet size and I really don't think there is any. I don't know what the twist rate is in the CR-1871 NEF rifle is but I am going to call NEF to find out. Have any of you shot this rifle, the NEF Buffalo classic. I was considering it over the imports because the imports are so expensive. Any comments on this?? Thanks again.

FestusHaycreek

I forgot to ask Iroquois Scout, what are the 21/10 and 27/8 and 2.4 numbers referring to in your post?? I guess the 420 and 550 are bullet weights, right??

Iroquois Scout

The numbers 21/10, 2.4 and 27/8 is the length of the case in inches. In order they are the .45-70 Govt., .45-90 Sharps and the last is the .45-110 Sharps. All three are straight rimmed cases. The numbers 420, 500 and 550 is the weight of these three bullets in grains. There are 7,000 grains to one pound. Hope that this clears up this point for you. In your last post you said that you had planed to use smokeless powder. If this is true,then stick with the shorter case of the .45-70 Govt. cartridge as it is far more efficent with this type of powder then are the cartridges with the longer cases. In a strong action rifle such as the Ruger No.1,the .45-70 with 400gr. bullets,can be loaded to equal the power level of the British 404 Jeffery. A cartridge which was well thought of in Africa. I hope that the forum has been of some help to you,sometimes we squabble among ourselves but still everyone tries to help.