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Side by Side identity

bobguzbobguz Member Posts: 54 ✭✭
edited June 2002 in Ask the Experts
I just purchased a (12 gauge??) side by side. The private party seller could only tell me that he thought it was Belgian. Folks, this is a nice, older piece in excellent condition. Metal is lightly engraved and unscratched. Bluing is worn and has a light brown patina. The Walnut fore end is very slim and checkered as is the pistol grip of the stock. There are sling swivels beneath the barrels and at the butt. There are black caps on the butt and pistol grip. Both barrels are stamped with the picture of a crown and both are stamped "Choke 18,3". These marks are underneath the breech of both barrels. Now, I'm not an expert on SxS actions, but as the release lever is pressed to the right, a metal rod moves out to the left and the barrels open. A square metal extension on the open barrels has a hole in it and apparently engages that metal rod as the action is closed and locked. I see no serial numbers, patent marks or label.

How can I identify this gun? And where can I learn more about this piece and it's maker?

Comments

  • AdamsQuailHunterAdamsQuailHunter Member Posts: 2,022 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Rather than trying to tackle everything at once:

    1. Look at the "proof-marks" and see if there is a crown on an oval or just an oval with "ELG" in the oval. There may also be a star below the letters in the oval.

    If this is the case then, we know it is Belgian.

    2. If that is the case we will move on to the type of lock on the action and after that try to establish a maker.

    Best Regards:
  • captkirk3@dslextreme.comcaptkirk3@dslextreme.com Member Posts: 3,804
    edited November -1
    The Action is a PURDY Crossbolt Action..Designed by PURDY of London and Copied by many...However, there is not enough information to try and appoint a Maker at this juncture.....

    Captain Kirk, Tech Staff
  • AntiqueDrAntiqueDr Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    FAR more likely to be an Anson & Deeley type action with a Greener-style crossbolt.

    We buy, sell and trade quality guns and scopes!Master Dealer for Kimber, Wilson Combat and Dan Wesson.Visit our website at www.ApaxEnterprises.com
  • bobguzbobguz Member Posts: 54 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks. Closer examination, in a brighter light, and wearing my glasses shows: 1) on the exterior of the left barrel is inscribed, "Made in Belgium", and, "NITRO". 2) The receiver and metal of the fore end appear case hardened. 3) On the inside (wood) of the fore end and beneath the firing pins on the receiver (metal) is stamped "39". The number "9." appears on the metal, inside of the fore end. 4) The Proof Marks do include, "ELG", below which is stamped an oval containing, "12-70". 5) One barrel is stamped, "JW". 6) The butt plate appears to be of case hardened metal. The pistol grip cap appears to be of plastic. 7) There are double triggers and a metal bead front sight.
  • bobguzbobguz Member Posts: 54 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks. Closer examination, in a brighter light, and wearing my glasses shows: 1) on the exterior of the left barrel is inscribed, "Made in Belgium", and, "NITRO". 2) The receiver and metal of the fore end appear case hardened. 3) On the inside (wood) of the fore end and beneath the firing pins on the receiver (metal) is stamped "39". The number "9." appears on the metal, inside of the fore end. 4) The Proof Marks do include, "ELG", below which is stamped an oval containing, "12-70". 5) One barrel is stamped, "JW". 6) The butt plate appears to be of case hardened metal. The pistol grip cap appears to be of plastic. 7) There are double triggers and a metal bead front sight.
  • AdamsQuailHunterAdamsQuailHunter Member Posts: 2,022 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ok --- now we have some information to go on and in response to other posters we also have some additional information.

    1. It is Belgian made.

    2. It is 12 guage.

    3. It is chambered for 2-3/4 inch shotshells.

    4. It is proofed for modern smokeless loads.

    5. When you take the barrels off of the receiver --- are there two pins in the forearm that go into slots on the "knuckles" of the the receiver??????

    6. On the end of the forarm --- is there a little plunger that you push to release the forearm or do you release the forarm by means of a screw about mid-way down the forearm?????

    7. On the receiver --- does the screws and roll-pin heads have engraving around them that looks like a "sun" or sun-flower?????
  • bobguzbobguz Member Posts: 54 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks, Adams. Let's take your questions by number.
    #5) There are two "pins" I would say protruding from the receiver and engaging the forearm.

    #6) There is a plunger on the end of the forearm to release same.

    #7) There are Sun and Sunflower engravings around the large screws but not on the roll pins.
  • AdamsQuailHunterAdamsQuailHunter Member Posts: 2,022 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hello "Dr." bobguz

    1. I have forgotten my manners. Welcome to the forum. I hope that you will find it to your liking and hang around with us from time to time as your schedule allows.

    2. Now back to the shotgun --- on the part that sticks back between the barrels --- it will have a round hole in it, but does it also have a little square notch on the edge of the metal tab???????

    3. Look on the barrels while you have them in hand. Look at the lugs that stick down and engage the receiver. Do they have little square notches in them on the side towards the receiver?????

    4. When you push the top-lever to break the action open, do you see a little metal tab sliding back --- it should be just above the "head" of the top-lever.???????

    5. When you push the top-lever----do you see two metal tabs slide back down on the water-table where the barrel flats meet the receiver????

    6. It is very unlikely --- BUT is there a "banner" on the receiver, sort of like the one on a Walther PP????????

    7. With this information, I think I can get you in the right ball park. I have my doubts as to being able to determine exact maker.

    Edited by - AdamsQuailHunter on 06/10/2002 00:25:00
  • bobguzbobguz Member Posts: 54 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Please QuailHunter, I'm Bob in my office and prefer that handle.

    That's quite a list and will require the gun in hand. It's at home and I won't be until about 9:00pm EDT. And let me say a big THANK-YOU for your attention to this matter.

    Bob
  • bobguzbobguz Member Posts: 54 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    O.K. QuailHunter, let's take your questions by number.

    2) Yes, there is a notch about 1/16" wide running along the base of the metal tab: from the barrels to the end of the tab. It's about a 1/2"L X 1/16"W X + 1/16"D

    3) Yes, the (female) notches are there on the barrel lugs and are engaged by two males of the receiver which retract as the top lever is pushed right to open the action.

    4) IF I'm looking at the "Head" of the top lever, I don't see any litle metal tab sliding back.

    5) Yes, those described in #3.

    6) Walther PP "banner" - I'll have to take a close look at a PP. There is an engraving on both sides of the receiver that reminds me of the winged Harley-Davidson wheel except the wheel looks like a snail or a coiled snake??

    Hmmmm...

    Bob
  • AdamsQuailHunterAdamsQuailHunter Member Posts: 2,022 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hello bobgus:)

    I am going to try to sneak this response in here before the Captain shuts the topic down, which he does with about 10 responses.

    Here are the things I am sure of:

    1. It is Belgian made.

    2. It is 12 guage.

    3. It is chambered for 2-3/4 inch shotshells.

    4. It is proofed for modern smokeless loads.

    5. As AntiqueDr suspected, it is a Anson & Deeley action with a Greener-style cross bolt. The Captain was headed in the right direction with the Purdy action, but this one is Anson & Deeley. (The tab just above the head of top-lever is hard to see sometimes --- but the fact that the "notch" is in the part that sticks back behind the barrels - tells me that it is there.)

    6. The shotgun is a well made "field-grade" shotgun. Do not be afraid to use it and hunt it hard. Hopefully, with your contacts from the office, you have invitations to hunt on private lands. If you are ever up on my end of Florida, maybe you can join me on public lands for a dove hunt, or on the Suwannee River for some fly-fishing.



    Now for what I don't know for sure.

    1. Right up until you threw me a curve-ball with the engraved "winged-wheel", I was pretty sure your's was a "Guild" gun and may still be. The odds of finding out which member of the "Guild" made it is very slim. However---now someone may recognize the engraving which
    could give you the exact maker.

    2. I do not recognize the engraving from the description, however - I will keep it in mind, and if I ever find out what it is, I will put out a "calling bobgus" post.



    Things I am hopeful for:
    I hope that as a new member of the forum that you have found it to your liking and will join us here as often as your schedule permits.

    Best Regards
  • bobguzbobguz Member Posts: 54 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    QuailHunter, I am delighted with this newly found Forum. And I may take you up on your offer someday. There are no longer quail in SE Florida. And even private lands are becoming scarce.

    This gun will go to my son who lives in the piedmont of Virginia. He'll take good care of it and years from now pass it on to his son. Whomever the maker was I;m sure that would make him happy.

    You and I will meet again on some other topic. Thanks

    Bob
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