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Spencer 1860 carbine serial numbers.

shyguy1864shyguy1864 Member Posts: 15 ✭✭
edited August 2013 in Ask the Experts
I have a question to ask concerning serial numbers of the model 1860 Spencer carbines. According to Springfield Research all the guns in the 52,000 range were issued in early 1865 to mainly the 14th Kansas Cavalry. Now going by the excepted notion that production began in the fall of 63 in the 11,000 range and about 2000 a month were produced that would put manufacture of the 52,000 range guns to be early 65 with coincides with the issue dates.
The Battle of Nashville was fought on the 15th and 16th of December 64. The union cavalry was under the command of Gen. James H. Wilson.
As the rebs retreated southward they fought a delaying action on the outskirts of Franklin on the 17th.Wilson spent the night at a nearby home that was owned by a woman that her husband was off to war and she was alone with small children. He felt sorry for her as she had no means to defend herself from robbers and scavengers etc, so when he left the next morning he left her his personal Spencer and ammo.
That Spencer is now in a local museum donated by the descendants of the woman along with info on how the family got it.
Now here is the "puzzlement". The serial no. of the Spencer is 52,097.
SOOOOO according to conventional wisdom that gun wasn`t made till early 65 so it couldn`t have been issued and at Nashville in December 64.Serial no. 52,096 is listed as being issued in 3/65 to the 14th Kansas which was not even in Wilsons command.
So in my mind one of two things is apparent,either the story of how the family obtained the gun in`t true or the production was further along in late 64 than everyone believes.
just wanted some thoughts on the matter from others.

Comments

  • rufe-snowrufe-snow Member Posts: 18,650 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    A lot of family oral histories passed down through many years and many generations, tend to be embellished. I would have more credence in Springfield Research documentation, rather then the exhibit at the museum.


    EDIT #1, Years ago when I first started collecting, I was advised to buy the gun, not the story it came with.

    This Spencer is the perfect example. It's no more or less, a reasonably common carbine. It's value would be dramatically enhanced, if the story about it belonging to the Union General. Who gave to a lady in Nashville as a gift, can be substantiated.

    Years back I was a member of a antique arms forum. Where a similar request was made. A gentleman had a sawed-off percussion shotgun in his possession. He wanted us to buy into, that it was used by the Confederate cavalry. All he had to substantiate it was fanciful story similar to the above. We respectively declined.


    EDIT #2, Best bet at this late date, to verify that the Spencer was a gift from a Union general. Is to research the microfilmed files of the Nashville newspapers of the day. Also contact the local historical societies, to see if they have any documents or any other items in their archives. Relating to the Union armies stay in the Nashville during the war. Specifically anything connecting the family to the general in question.

    If you don't want to personally do this type of research. There are professional researchers you can hire, to do it for you.
  • shyguy1864shyguy1864 Member Posts: 15 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    True. But that doesn`t explain away the fact that the gun has been in the family since the war and the confusion over serial no. ranges.
  • rufe-snowrufe-snow Member Posts: 18,650 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by shyguy1864
    True. But that doesn`t explain away the fact that the gun has been in the family since the war and the confusion over serial no. ranges.



    You don't factually know that the families story is correct. Your talking about something that happened 149 years ago. That's 6+ generations ago. Unless you have independent documentation of what exactly happened in the 1864/65 time frame in Nashville, unfortunately it's just so much hot air.
  • shyguy1864shyguy1864 Member Posts: 15 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks. Here is more info. According to Springfield research the 1st Alabama was issued guns in the upper 52,000 range and also 53,000 in Nov/64.Also the 3th Kentucky was simply listed as having gotten their guns in 64,no month listed.So its all kinda confusing but lends more evidence that the factory was further along in production than thought.
  • perry shooterperry shooter Member Posts: 17,105 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It would not be out of reason to believe the spencer was a gift To the General before the rest of his troopers were issued their spencers especially if he was instrumental in Spencer getting the military contract.
  • perry shooterperry shooter Member Posts: 17,105 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I tend to believe ORAL history More if no exchange of BIG $$$ are exchanged to get a gun as in this case.
  • shyguy1864shyguy1864 Member Posts: 15 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I also tend to believe the family as well as they were giving the gun away not selling it so not much incentive to lie.As I said before I`ve seen the gun in the museum and it is a well above average condition gun. Lot of blue left on the barrel.Not 'mint" but nice. No doubt the family may have used the gun many years after the war for protection or hunting or both.Also as I pointed out the 1st Alabama and the 3th Kentucky were issued theirs in late 64. But they were not with Wilson they were with Sherman in Georgia.
  • JohnnyBGoodJohnnyBGood Member Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    First off, the dates shown in the SRS volumes are not always issue dates. Sometimes it's the date an arm was turned in, inspected, repaired, etc. While I believe a majority of them are issue dates, a good number represent something else.

    Secondly, the dates listed are not always the first regiment an arm was issued to. Just like most all military arms, Spencer carbines were issued, turned in, then reissued and turned in again, and so on to several different units. However, the only date where a record has survived might be the second or even third issuance.

    And finally, firearms were not made, boxed, stored, shipped, unpacked, and then issued in neat sequential order. Because of this it's not unusual to find higher serial numbered guns in use before a lower sn.

    Johnny
  • shyguy1864shyguy1864 Member Posts: 15 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Johnny thanks for your post. One thing I`ve found out is that some of the guns listed were issued to other units first as you said.
    An example is in the Springfield Research docs that list a great no. of Spencers being issued to the 4th Kentucky mounted infantry in March of 65. They were all earlier serial no. range guns. March of 65 Wilson was preparing for his raid on Selma etc and wanting to arm all troopers taking part with Spencers. He had chosen Gen. Croxtons division for the raid and ordered men in Hatch`s division,which would not be a part of the raid, that had Spencers to turn over their guns to Croxtons command of which the 4th KMI was a part.
    I read on the net a history written by one of the former troopers of the 4th that mentions the transfer of guns and he stated that all the guns the 4th KMI received had originally been in the possession of the 2nd Iowa Cav. No telling to who the other units Spencers went.
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