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SKS 22cal part lll

plumbum34plumbum34 Member Posts: 22
edited August 2013 in Ask the Experts
So would anyone suggest where or who would be a good contact to get in touch with that could really look at this chinese SKS and verify this is a production SKS or prototype.I do feel 90% that this is genuine,I have 2 other Chinese sks's and 2 Chinese ak's to compare it to and everything from the machining marks to the barrel and bluing just overall craftsmanship that anyone with a Chinese weapon knows makes me believe it is.Cons it does take a 10/22 magazine but there i thing the magazine was designed after the Ruger 10/22 as far as how it fits in to the Rifle and it does work, But I feel what ever magazine that was made for it was a little different just because the angle of the feed ramp seems to be almost too steep it should be 45 degrees but it is like 15 degrees to me but i am not a gunsmith or expert I will see if i can get a pic with the mag in it loading a spent round for visual, I would like to hear any suggestions, Thanks for your Time

Comments

  • rufe-snowrufe-snow Member Posts: 18,650 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Start GOOGLEing, there are quite a number of SKS specific forums and boards on the net. Make a list. Send your photos and request for information, to each one of them in turn. Maybe someone can identify it?

    Personally I was flabbergasted! I like to think that I'm a RKI as far as SKS's are concerned. Got my first one back in the 70's,it came out of a cache in Nam. Also had a actual North Vietnam made SKS, and one of the very early import Chinese "Public Security" SKS's. Along with a bunch of plain vanilla Russian and Chinese SKS's. Never seen or heard about any being made in .22 RF though?
  • competentonecompetentone Member Posts: 4,696 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    From the photos -- they aren't real clear, either too bright or too dark to see the details I'd want to see -- my reaction is that it is just something someone built. There are plenty of machinists and gunsmiths who would have no difficulty modifying and making the parts to build what you have. Someone obviously started with an actual gas operated SKS; I don't see any reason, if this was some "factory prototype," for any "factory" gun to start where they did.

    I think for the $200 you say you paid for it, you got a fantastic deal. You'd have to pay a lot more than that to have someone build you one like it. But I don't see it as anything likely "historical" in SKS history, or the history of their importation into the U.S..

    I'd comment too: if this is something someone created and in the process they removed an original serial number (the one it was imported under) and added their own number (I'd assume that would be the one the pawn shop recorded for their records) you're probably looking at a firearm that is technically illegal. Odds are it won't be a problem, but if I were you, I'd be keeping the receipt from where you purchased it.

    Posted 7/26/13 as an "edit" to try to slow the locking point on this thread:

    beantownshootah posted: >>While its *possible* to do it from scratch. . .who the heck who had the ability to do it actually would?<<

    People do, or pay others, to do lots of strange conversions that make no economic -- or in many cases, "practical" -- sense what-so-ever. So I don't think a question of "why" would really be relevant.

    Mark C. raises some good questions about functionality. I think, if the bolt is aluminum, the question of blow-back operation is somewhat answered; that spring (photo in thread II) could be non-stock-SKS and light enough for blow-back operation.

    I'm wondering if some of the smaller parts could be a clue to its origins. I'm biased toward thinking it's U.S.-made, in part, because it's designed to use a Ruger 10/22 magazine. I'd be even more biased toward that conclusion, if something like the extractor is stock Ruger (10/22 or Mark-series; both use the same extractor).


    7/27/13 EDIT: Posted by "plumbum34" (quoting from e-mail): >>Again, these were basically hand built small production prototypes, so not having any other markings import or otherwise is not a surprise.<<

    I see problems with that comment.

    Even as "prototypes" if they were made in China, they'd need an importer and markings. If they were manufactured from parts here in the U.S., the manufacturer would have to be marked on it along with the serial number. If it was just a "caliber conversion" from an imported SKS, the original markings should have remained.

    Maybe some guys got together and went to a Shot Show -- without having formed a licensed company to really legally manufacture firearms -- and displayed some converted SKSs, so the guy you're talking to may be accurate in what he's remembering. And you might have one of these conversion "prototypes." While it's something "neat," I don't see it as something really historically significant to SKS history, since it's just something "homemade" -- and, as I mentioned before, might actually be technically illegal if original serial numbers were removed during the conversion.
  • nmyersnmyers Member Posts: 16,885 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Competentone did a great job of analyzing your rifle, & his logic would be difficult to argue with.

    As for a "good contact" to get a really good look, the only place other than this forum is the Milsurp Forum:

    http://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay.php?f=133

    But, like here, you will need better photos. Your bolt photo looks great, but the others are just not clear. Hopefully you know someone who has a better camera.

    Neal

    EDIT: It's been 12 years since that post, & we have yet to see any evidence of an SKS .22 variant. At this point, I would say that it's likely an Internet hoax or fantasy, like the 4-shot cell phone derringer. The Chicom arms industry has never had a US factory representative, importer, distributor, parts seller, or repair facility. Commercial importers are the only folks who bring them into the US, & the expense of bringing in a single firearm is too great for them to bother. The only imported Chicom .22 I can think of is the Norinco ATD, a commercial failure (due to poor quality).
  • plumbum34plumbum34 Member Posts: 22
    edited November -1
    Here is a copy of a thread from this forum Posted by Irarmsx replying to question about Chinese Paratroopers From 2001 I believe



    There were a number of variations of Chinese guns available in there day. Paratroopers (Full size rifles cut down for the US market from a 20 inch barrel to a 16.5 inch.) There was also the "cowboy", same thing as the paratrooper, but no slot in the stock for a bayonet and no bayonet itself. The detachable AK mag fed models with and later without bayonet.

    There are still some "new" SKS's out there, I've still got some available. However I'll have to concur with the previous posts that there is nothing wrong with most of the refurbished or used SKS's out there. Just make sure you get one that has all original matching numbers, the milled trigger guard and screwed in barrel are a plus too. BTW, if anyone tries to sell you one bragging that it has a "Milled" receiver, don't be impressed, THEY ALL HAD MILLED RECEIVERS.

    SP, there were supposedly some actual paratrooper models made, but 99% of the ones found in this country were just the standard size gun cut down to a paratrooper size. Anything to get that US dollar. There were even a few Chinese SKS's made as prototypes in .22LR and some prototypes made in .223 cal. Both were destined for the US market. Now if you have one of either of those, you've got something.

    If you want better pics email me and i will get some out to you.I do have pics on other sks forums if you Google sks 22 and they should come up. I am getting some very good comments and feedback some saying they believe it is a true Sks and some not. I am taking it to the next Minnesota weapons collectors show to show a guy that has dealt with Norinco ,Polytech and has visited Norinco.I also have send better pic to Yooper sks who collects these and has a very good knowledge of SKS's so i am waiting for him to send me his opinion.
  • beantownshootahbeantownshootah Member Posts: 12,776 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Link to last two threads on this for convenience:

    Part 1 http://forums.GunBroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=606256
    Part 2 http://forums.GunBroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=606274

    quote:Originally posted by nmyers
    EDIT: It's been 12 years since that post, & we have yet to see any evidence of an SKS .22 variant.
    You just saw it.

    I don't know who made the gun, but just looking at the bolt (image resposted below), it clearly took a lot of machining operations just to create that, plus a lot of gunsmithing knowledge to put the whole thing together as a working gun.

    To my eye, the overall machining marks look just like those on a regular Chinese SKS bolt, and I think it would be a LOT easier to build something like that on actual SKS tooling, rather than fabricate it from scratch. While its *possible* to do it from scratch. . .who the heck who had the ability to do it actually would?

    Chinese SKS guns were basically considered "junk" guns when they were last importable. It took 15 years of non-importation and several iterations of gun bans (real and proposed) to turn them into the more desirable guns that they are today. Why would someone spend untold amounts of time, energy, and money fabricating a new bolt from scratch, putting in a custom barrel, redesigning the action and magazine system, just to create a .22 SKS knockoff that probably has poorer performance than a Ruger 10/22 and little more than curiosity value?

    IMO, it makes a lot more sense that this was created as a prototype in an actual SKS factory on original tooling, than as a "one-off" by a private gunsmith.

    If this were a Chinese made prototype you'd only expect there to be at most a few of them around, potentially of different designs, and a one-off is probably as likely. If so, a gun like this could easily have sat in someone's private collection unknown and unused for 20 years, until it re-emerged recently into private sale.

    My suggestion is to go back to the place where you bought it, and ask THEM where THEY got it. Tracing the history of the gun that way may not be easy, but its probably better than sheer speculation about what may or may not have happened in China an indefinite length of time ago!

    Incidentally, I completely agree that $200 for this thing is a bargain. If its really a unique Chinese made factory prototype, its probably worth at least several times that amount. If this were a privately made conversion, it still couldn't be built for less than several times that amount in parts and labor.

    photo48_zpsd96aa3ff.jpg

    Edit, responding to below.

    Mark, the original poster said the bolt was made out of alumimum, not steel. Presumably the action spring is really lightweight and the lower mass of the bolt helps it cycle. Don't know about the throw/reciprocating length, but it only has to cycle slightly more than the length of a .22LR round to function.

    On firing pin, the length of it could be controlled so that it couldn't do more than indent the rim of the case. I'd also assume the gun has a reduced power hammer spring so that the recoil from a .22 could cock it.
  • mark christianmark christian Member Posts: 24,453 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    My questions, based on the photos of the parts we have seen, are based on how the rifle operates? Specifically how does a .22LR cartridge allow the bolt to cycle and where is the recoil spring that was adjusted for a .22? The bolt, if it is steel, allows no way for the little pipsqueak to cycle the action unless it was heavily modified. There is no floating chamber or any sort of boosting device that we can see so it has to be a straight blowback action and that means another recoil spring; the one we see in the photos looks heavy and I doubt a .22 could push it and that bolt back far enough to cycle the action. What does the bolt face look like? Is the firing pin hole off set for the rimfire cartridge? What modifications were done to the trigger group? The photo shows a group that looks unmodified and that hammer spring would have enough force to cause the pin to punch right through the case.
  • plumbum34plumbum34 Member Posts: 22
    edited November -1
    Well I got some Good news For a Email from L&R ARMS Exchange he is the guy that posted the reply about Paratroopers Sks i posted ,He is also a member here on GunBroker forum this is his email to me.

    I never was able to get these into my store, but I did see them at the Shot Show as limited number prototypes. They had some made to test the market to see if they would be in demand and sell on the US market. That number #7 is probably its serial number. I was under the impression there were something like 10 of them. Keep in mind, when these were made up and tested for marketing, an actual 7.62X39 SKS in standard configuration was retailing for under $100. These .22lr ones were going to sell for more (their wholesale cost was going to be more than the 7.62X39 models). A basic Ruger 10/22 or Marlin .22lr semi auto were both available for between $90-150. So on these, marketing showed that while the SKS was popular, one in .22lr at more than a 7.62X39 version and at as much or more than a domestically built well established reliable semi auto .22lr, there wasn't a market for a .22lr SKS at that time. Again, these were basically hand built small production prototypes, so not having any other markings import or otherwise is not a surprise. They would have used normal SKS parts where applicable and then .22lr specific parts where needed. The fact that yours has some feeding issues is not a big surprise, they were never thoroughly fielded and tested for reliability. They never really got beyond the test market phase. I hope this helps.

    Roger
    L & R Arms Exchange

    Thank you Roger for the information. Maybe this will shed some light on this Sks, Thank you everyone for the comments ,If anything this is a neat fine for me and hopefully everyone else. Also the bolt is aluminum but dove tail so the bottom half is steel the spring is the same as a normal sks just smaller in length and diameter and the tension is light there is no gas piston, It shoot just fine if i shoot one at a time but if i try and rapid fire it ,it Ftf or double feeds and crips the shell i have used 40gr,36gr and 20 subsonic.

    So I looked at receipt . It says Chinese sks 22 LR #7 I called the pawn shop and ask if they remember the gun and the guy who sold it to them ,the only information he gave Them was he pick it at a gun show 2 years ago from a guy selling a estate of military guns from his father .All I know is I did all the FFL paperwork as normal and he called it in and they (ATF) have it the green lite.
  • rufe-snowrufe-snow Member Posts: 18,650 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If the SKS in .22 LR, is legit? And one of the limited import, dealers samples, that was observed by Roger. The proprietor of the L & R Arms Exchange, at the Shot Show. It has to be at least nearly 20 years old.

    Bill Clinton had the law changed banning the importation of Chinese rifles and handguns in 1994. That means that the last Shot Show that the Chinese could have possibly displayed their rifles at, was in early 1994. I believe that the Shot Show is normally held in either January or February.
  • plumbum34plumbum34 Member Posts: 22
    edited November -1
    Ok so i took my sks 22 to the gunshow and let a guy that has collect chinese sks's and ak's and used to sell norinco back in the 80"s ,and who has been to the factory, His opinion is that my Sks 22 is a factory rifle, his opinion is that it has all the signs of a factory made prototype because of the machining marks and the stock the bluing is consistent with that of other chinese sks's . We agree that there would have been a mag for it.Anyway that is all i have so far i will still be researching for more info.
  • mark christianmark christian Member Posts: 24,453 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thank you for the update.
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