Weight controversy cont.

v35

Just weighed a 16"lightweight AR15 at 6 1/2lbs exactly. Add another 10 ounces for one with the military profile 20" barrel. Either are significantly lighter than the 9.5-10lb Garand or the 8.5-9lb M14 and then there's the ammo load of at least a few hundred rounds.In a SHTF survival situation where you can be on the move for an indeterminate period of time with food, clothing, supplies, shelter, gun and ammo on your back, every pound is a critical issue that has to justify itself against stuff you're forced to leave behind because of weight or bulk. That 14lb rifle sounds interesting but who is going to carry the rest of your stuff?The Maginot Line concept in France didnt work.

JustC

so you are totaly against the M1A? I have the lighter weapons, but am trying to determine if the super match or Nat'l match are heavier than the standard grade and therefore not worth the effort. I am going to get an M1A, I just don't know which one is the smartest choice. All things being equal, I would like the SM for the accuracy, but I don't know about the weight difference.

schutzenuts

As several others have stated, you need to balance the weight of the rifle in accordance to other weight factors. Despite what Fred's says, the normal SHTF situation for many of us will be house to house urban warfare as was Stalingrad and Mogadishu. you don't have to worry about super match accuracy at 100-150 yards. The Viet Cong did great with their 3" SKS. The Arizona Rangers in the late 1800's carried Winchester '92 with 15" barrels in .32-20 mainly because they could carry 500 rounds of ammo with this rig. In many instances, a .22mag lever or auto will suit you needs and give you enough ammo to go a couple of rounds with the Roman Legions!

JustC

yes, but, my area is open fields and woods. I have the ability to engage at much farther distances. There is not much urban action that will take place. My shots will be, unless in the city for supplies, 100yds at the least. The gun will still perform at close range, but I want the long range capability as well.

robsguns

I dont mean to put a damper on your SHTF scenario, but exactly what do you think is going to happen, that you will need to even worry about this, that if the military cant handle it, you believe you can? No disrespect intended, but this is sort of out there. Please dont take me wrong, I use to think about these scenarios also, but I learned a lot, and I no longer think about these scenarios. If you are worried about some sort of civil war within our own borders, ok, I'll give you that one, it IS possible, though unlikely.To put some constructive opinion into the sauce though.... I think the AR-15 variants are going to be your best bet. I will put my life in the hands of anyone proficient with one. At distances up to 500 yds.+, you will be able to cover your open fields of fire also, trust me. I will always opt for the lighter weapon, over the older heavier weapons. You will never have to worry about replacement parts either, while the country is coming to an end. Nor will you need to worry about ammo. The issue of lighter ammo is not an issue to take lightly either. The military has already taken a stance on this issue, and they are correct. Hope this doesnt sound to arrogant, but the U.S. military is not wrong on THIS issue.By the way, for anyone wanting to opt for the heavier weapon, if you havent done so, take your old war horse out for a nice long walk, just on flat land, with the normal stuff for hunting, not even the stuff you need for 2 days of survival, let me know how you feel about the weight after about 2 miles, then 4, then 6, then 8. After that, try going through an obstacle course, simulating house to house fighting. I think you will see the factors contributing to the logic of the light weapon after the walk, not to mention the obstacle course. Darn spelling!

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SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC[This message has been edited by robsguns (edited 03-24-2002).]

JustC

Point taken robsguns, now consider that in order for me to justify the expenditure, I must make use of the gun in some way. This will be crop damage hunts and maybe also regular season hunts. Therefore, I have to go for the 30 caliber, as the 223 will not have enough energy at 400-500yds to EFFECTIVELY harvest a whitetail. I just want to be able to use the gun for something other than paper or training scenarios. I have several lighter toys which I can employ should the unreal ever become reality, I am now interested in the M1A as I don't have that design rifle yet and have been hearing some very good things about it's performance. I want to be sure that when/if I do purchase one, I will get the correct variation for my needs.

v35

You're going to harvest a southern whitetail at 400-500 yards with a M-1 ???It sounds like you're dead set on one so go for it. There are a lot of guys out there that want them so you can always resell it. If you're into heavy obsolete military small arms also look at the semi version of the BAR. I've heard of some real effective long range sniping with them, more so than with the M-1.

JustC

v35, I know it sounds like a stretch, but, the 308 does have the power enough, if loaded with a good hunting tip i.e.(balistic tip/partition) to get a clean kill. I would say that 500yds is the outside max, but considering that it goes claen through at 300yds, it should still carry enough power to do the job at 400yds. Not to mention they have no fat and far less insulation to get through, during the warm summer months. That is the reason I am so interested in the accuracy angle. I have to be sure on paper, that it will group consistently (scoped of course) enough to be sure the bullet will hit where it needs to, EVERY TIME. That is the only ethical way, therefore, if it will not perform to those standards, it is of no use to me and I will simply buy a rack grade for iron sighted shooting at paper and cans and such.

robsguns

JustC, I say go for it. I know the 308 will do what you want it to at 500 yds. If you want the gun you dont have to convince me, heck I'd just buy it. I just dont get into autos, wish I did, its like a phobia for a gun nut to not like autos, practically a handicap .I can see you using the M1 like that, just dont go humping it around, use the AR.

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SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC

JustC

robsguns, just looked up the weight.standard=9.2lbsNM and SM=10.8lbsNo scope.good bench or bipod weight, but your right, I wouldn't want to hump it all day.

michael minarik

Ya all r right but in my case...the more work I would do to survie the more weight i will looze...unfortunatley...i can looze some. At 54 i am a long way from the endurance and strength I had back then and than back then at 5'5" and 145lbs., I could curl 110. I can get close now but my endurance is not there. I would stick with a 308 cause it will shoot into and thru things that a 223 will not: AT ANY RANGE! I have a more confidence in a .30 cal bullet killing or causing injury than a punny 223 at all distances. At 200 yards+ there is no way a 223 can penetrate and kill as efficiently as 30 cal let alone shoot thru a wall or shatter a block to get at a threat. Ever see a sniper rifle in 223...not me. But in close quarters anything will kill....even a thrown brick! In order to carry more ammo what would I leave behind...I'll have to think on that one....by the way the M1A with the sythetic stock is lighter!!! Stainlss model only for me. The open areas, valleys and canyons in Afgan...wrong place for the punny .223 a 308 would be better. In those canyons and valleys that small pellet would be at the mercy of the wind and heat waves more so than the heavier 30 cal bullet! At 300 yards you would not hit a man in the open; in those elements should they be acting up a 40 or 50 grain pellet will not be very predictable...heavier bullets would buck the wind an heat-therms much better.[This message has been edited by michael minarik (edited 03-26-2002).][This message has been edited by michael minarik (edited 03-26-2002).][This message has been edited by michael minarik (edited 03-26-2002).]

Bullzeye

Why dont you forget about the M1 and just get a Remington 700 in .30-06, .308, or 7mm Magnum with a synthetic stock and a detachable mag?It'll weigh quite a bit less, and the accuracy will be quite a bit more. You can buy several detachable box mags if you're really worried about doing a lot of shooting.It'll take an equal amount of time, or maybe a little less, to change out box mags instead of pushing a loaded stripper clip into an M1.Personally, I'd rather take the guy out with one guaranteed shot from 700 yards instead of waiting until he gets to 400 or 500 and just firing off all 8 rounds in your M1.An equally good choice would be an L1A1 or FAL. Powerful round, great accuracy, and has a 20 round mag. All of those things mean it's heads and tails over the M1 or AR-15.And if you're planning on killing anything that walks upright, and you're going to be using anything other than tremendously hot ballistic tip handloads, forget about the AR-15. It's simply not worth the effort.Like I've said a hundred times before, when you only get time for one shot, I'd really rather have a guaranteed kill or incapacitation, as opposed to the chance for a merely wounded foe who still retains the ability to shoot back.Unless of course you want to wound him and just piss him off.People have their own personal leanings, not all of them based on sound fact.PS- You also might want to take a gander at a Dragunov rifle if you have the time or effort to find a legit one. They're a Kalashnikov design, so they're rugged as all hell and almost unjammable. Plus it fires the powerful 7.62x54mm at semi-auto, so you get the best of both worlds.

steve45

David Hackworth (more combat and medals than you can shake a stick at) in a Sunday newspaper article said the m-16 with .223 was not very effective in Afganistan. That a longer ranged round was needed. I think the terrain your in would decide the caliber. In the open areas of Arizona I would pick my M1A and .308

JustC

Well guys, I have enjoyed everyones experience and views on the M1A, these have been 2 GREAT THREADS. Captkirk, thanks for letting us run with these, I am still learning and gaining good insight into my purchase of an M1A.As for the distance goes, I already have 2 1000yd guns in a bolt design. This purchase will be a dual purpose kind of thing. I will use it to hunt and also have a proven battle rifle configuration, a nice balance between the two, I think.Keep em coming.